Opel Manta TDI

[Guest]

Hi,

I just joined this site, which seems to be a good place to learn

about later GM/Opel/ Vauxhalls for my 2008-9 project

I have spent 3 years experimenting with biodiesel and running my Nissan 4x4 DTi. Lots of fun (lots of torque), but the Nissan has to go. The biodiesel worked out fine (but not without its problems) and generally performs well, with a 50/50 blend preferred. I want a smaller (lighter) car as I do not like 4x4s very much.

I don't want a new car and ufortunately there are very few attractive classic diesels out there apart from maybe MBs. You can pull some very respectable power out of the old MB diesels if you spend money / time), but I am not an MB Fan and prefer Opel technology. I decided to go ahead and make what I want.

I like the (pretty) '70-75 Manta and I want to drop in a modern Ecotec

Diesel to run alternate fuel (BD/Dino blend). The origin HP for the

cars was under 100 HP, so with the usual mods to diesel I am aiming for boosting this to 120+ HP mark.

Swapping a diesel into a petrol equivalent is a huge PITA, but does not mean it cannot / should not be done. I want to make an 'alternate fuel' vehicle that does not look like it was designed and driven by anoraks. There will be the need for fabrication / wiring etc. but nothing that is not doable. Like any project, you address it in small stages, do what you can yourself / learn and delegate / pay for the stuff you cannot.

Any info / recommendations re. which might be the best 90s Opel/Vauxhall turbodiesel engines to aim for is much appreciated.

Thanks,

Ian B.

[entwistlecymru]

Sounds like a plan! How about the twin turbo V6 diesel from the new Vectra?! I'd have thought the Ecotec diesel would fit easily with you know what, seeing as it's the same family as the petrol Ecotec. Isn't there someone already smoking round in a 1700 Isuzu TD engined Manta?

OMOC #5826..... 1974 Renault 17 Gordini, 1979 SRB coupe - 'interesting project', 1981 SRB coupe - sell or swap?, 1983 Renault 5 Gordini turbo, 1984 Renault 5 Le Car 2 Turbo 1985 Renault 4 Gordini Turbo, 1993 Senator 24v for sale, 1994 Senator 24v

[gunman]

I'd be interested to know if the isuzu engine fits[]

If what I say can be taken in 2 ways and one of those ways get you angry....I meant it the other way

e-mail : mark_gunning@yahoo.co.uk

OMOC 5817

[karoshi]

quote:Originally posted by entwistlecymruIsn't there someone already smoking round in a 1700 Isuzu TD engined Manta?

id="quote">id="quote">

i'd be very interested to know if there is someone.. i have a cavalier with that engine in at the moment which is about dead and i'd been thinking around the idea of sourcing a manta with a dead engine

[]

the isuzu TD engine from my experience is crude and noisy but generally bulletproof, making about 80-90hp in standard but i've seen fuelling and turbo mods that'll put it up to about 110hp

iv'e seen pictures of mantas running c30se / c30ne engines from carltons, so if straight sixes will go in, what about the (bmw) 525tds engine as found in Vauxhall Omegas? with the BMW engine management tune they're good for about 150hp

[Guest]

quote:Originally posted by entwistlecymru

Sounds like a plan! How about the twin turbo V6 diesel from the new Vectra?! I'd have thought the Ecotec diesel would fit easily with you know what, seeing as it's the same family as the petrol Ecotec. Isn't there someone already smoking round in a 1700 Isuzu TD engined Manta?

OMOC #5826..... 1974 Renault 17 Gordini, 1979 SRB coupe - 'interesting project', 1981 SRB coupe - sell or swap?, 1983 Renault 5 Gordini turbo, 1984 Renault 5 Le Car 2 Turbo 1985 Renault 4 Gordini Turbo, 1993 Senator 24v for sale, 1994 Senator 24v

---

id="quote">id="quote">

Hi,

Thanks for your input. I am kind of leaning towards and Opel / Vauxhall 1.9 CDTi at the moment due to weight and locating the engine North-South w/ adapter. I am looking at possible boxes - preferably manual. My preference is to source a 1.9 CDTi w/ loom and all ancilliaries and graft into the Manta A. I see this as the cleanest way to go while I work out the best final drive ratio.

Thanks for your inputs, please keep them coming as tis gets me closer to looking for both car and donor (also prefer RHD Manta A over LHD Manta A as I am in Japan.

Thanks,

Ian B.

[midasmesh]

There was a Manta running around with the 1.7 Isuzu engine in well i think it was that engine. Mick Maher (maher the hermit) was the man responsable but he then sold the car on so don't know what has happend to it since.

Midasmesh giving it rear wheel action in the Staffordshire Moorlands.

omoc 5285

Based in Leek near to Alton Towers.

[MantaMad]

I have often wondered how a modern TDi engine would be in the Manta, it performed very well in the Golf TDi 130 I used to have, which was quite a heavy car, so with the Mantas lighter weight, it could be good.

Perhaps one of the 4 pot diesels out of the new Astra, I think they put out around 150bhp as standard.

David OMOC Member 420

Fife, Scotland

http://www.mantamad.co.uk

[paulmanta]

My wife has a VW Golf TDi, it is the 130bhp version and it shifts very well, it is torquey as well.

The only thing is you may have to match any engine you put into a Manta with a 6 speed box, these modern diesels are not very fond of revving and a 5 speed would be screaming at higher speeds.

The standard GTE 2litre Manta does just under 4000 rpm at 100mph, in top gear, the golf diesel does under 3000rpm at 100mph in 6th.

[Guest]

Looks like the 2.0 DTi of 2.2 DTi Ecotec makes a lot of sense, with all the correct gear and a remap after installation. After more research, the newest 1.9 CDTis are more involved in terms of wiring and might make a better switch down the road when cheaper. We will start with an Ecotec boosted to 120 HP ans see how we go. Also fewer wiring dramas and better availability. The Vectra Forum has a lot of good info.

Time to get the crayons out.

Ian B.

[Andy manta xe]

What about the bmw 2.5 td the omega uses? Would that fit?

Straight six too [8D]

Memebership no 6096

Based in Liverpool!

[Rick-Manta]

You probably don't want to have too modern an engine either. You'll definately going to need to worry about wiring the fuel system, ECU, etc and with a later ecotec diesel you'll have rather a lot of sensors, switches and the like which'll be a nightmare to work with. You'd be best finding a well maintained early turbo diesel and definately GM based, however this will still be late 80's early 90's and I can't think of any that were RWD originally so that'll give you problems finding the right gearbox.

If you're willing to chop the bulkhead and tunnel around a bit, you could consider using an old bedford truck engine. I think they're 2.3/2.5 litre non turbo's in general and the gearbox will be right for the engine, just not sure on the rear axle ratio. With a diesel your rev band is quite limited so there's no room for error with gear ratios. Whatever you go for will be a major PITA diesel wise, but with an older engine in RWD application already will mean less of a pain! Good luck with it!

CHECKOUT MY V8 VIDEO HERE http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Djuq2xoCp1E

[Rick-Manta]

Are you decided on using Bio-diesel? If it's just being economical in a nice car you're after, what's wrong with a small GM petrol engine? A 1.2 twin cam in an A series will be a fun project and if you can find a forklift truck motor you could be the one to make the first manta hybrid!? Just a crazy idea of mine, but your diesel manta ain't exactly the sensible choice []

CHECKOUT MY V8 VIDEO HERE http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Djuq2xoCp1E

[Guest]

The very last Carlton's circa 1992 to 1994 were 2.3 turbo diesel engines and they were rear drive of course. Carltons are quite plentiful in breakers at the moment as the youngest one's are thirteen years old.

Don't know about how they will fit into a Manta but you never know.

[Guest]

I like this idea - modern economy and power in a classic is the way forward IMO.

First off, you will run into problems with gearbox choice. Obviously you need a RWD 'box, and mating one to a FWD engine is not going to be straight forward. It's doable, but involves some fairly accurate engineering work to make up an adapter plate and then there is the issues with input shaft lenghts/clutch choice etc. Big headache. Also sump issues will arrise, as FWD engines have oil pickups and sump baffles designed to work with forces exerted with the engine mounted sideways. We are very lucky that the XE 16V engine shares the block with the 1800 manta engine as that has given us all the bits to convert FWD engine to RWD application, but not so easy with a modern Diesel.

By far the easiest way would be to source a modern diesel engine and gearbox from a RWD car. Probably a BMW as their diesels are outstanding (to be fair the choice is really down to BMW or Merc anyway!). Try and find a damaged 320d or similar at a breakers, then you can hear it running. You will want engine, gearbox, all ancilliaries, wiring etc. The whole lot. Then it is basically just a case of hanging it in position (maybe altering the tunnel to accomodate), fabricating engine and gearbox mounts to hold it in place, and getting a prop made up from BMW front joint and Manta rear joint (plenty of specialists that do this sort of thing - you just need both old props, and tell them what length it needs to be). There will obviously be other issues, like water hoses etc, but I think this route would be easiest. Certainly do-able.

Good luck!

Callum.

1980 GT/J 2.0 SEH Road Car (soon to be 16V)

1978 Berlinetta 16V Rally car Project.

[MANTAMAN]

quote:Bela Posted - 14/12/2007 : 18:48:38 The very last Carlton's circa 1992 to 1994 were 2.3 turbo diesel engines and they were rear drive of course. Carltons are quite plentiful in breakers at the moment as the youngest one's are thirteen years old.

Don't know about how they will fit into a Manta but you never know.

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id="quote">id="quote">

These engines are the CIH type,its the same basic engine as the GTE Manta engine but enlarged to 2.3L and with a turbo added,and of course running on Diesel.provided there isn't any clearance issues with ancillaries it would probably bolt striaght into a B Series/GTE Manta,possible even an A Series.

This is an old style Diesel with an injector pump rather than the modern type with electric control so i dont know if there would be any benifit to fitting to a Manta.

I've got piles of all sorts of Manta parts,i might even have something you need!

surplus parts bought,whole cars considerd. M/B 07947 640505

OMOC Member number 2658F

Ian Virco,area rep,Beds Herts and North Bucks.

[MadamVectra]

hi

was thinking of the same idea not so long ago

but would love to use the 1.9cdti 150 ps engine ...same as my astra..and using the tuning box 200bhp/320lb ft

but i got called allsorts from a few non diesel belivers!

could be a great ball of fun to drive in my A series

but back to the age old problem of gearbox

would love to know the progress you make Eco.

MadamVectra

Or Should That Be MadamMantaMaddness!!

1972 Manta 1.9

A is Best

Dawn W.

OMOC 5805

North East Rep.

[Rick-Manta]

quote:Originally posted by MadamVectra

...but i got called allsorts from a few non diesel belivers!

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id="quote">id="quote">

[] Well I for one f*****g hate diesels!! I've been in far too many arguements with far too many people when I'm saying "no, modern diesels are still rubbish" so really they were doing you a favor disuading the idea mate []

I don't mind others trying out new idea and especially when it involves a manta, a biodiesel A will be one of a kind which is always a good thing. Just so long as I don't hear "diesels are better for the environment" 'cos they just ain't!

quote:Originally posted by MANTAMAN

its the same basic engine as the GTE Manta engine but enlarged to 2.3L and with a turbo added

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id="quote">id="quote">

Would the turbo and manifolds be compatable with the 2.0 GTE? Or better the 2.4 CIH in a GTE? []

CHECKOUT MY V8 VIDEO HERE http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Djuq2xoCp1E

[Guest]

Hi,

Thanks for all of the input re. this issue. I have a had a long time to consider the available options available as this was one of the original reasons I became interested in biodiesel. It was not the Diesel Golfs or Volvos, but a converted Nissan 2.8 TD-powered Datsun 240 owned by a biodiesel proponent in the US. After a number of years messing around with making and using biodiesel, I wanted to move to the next step.

I can buy a number of cars now that will run on BD and the only changes that really need to be made are in terms of fuel filter capacity and checking fuel quality. It is not just about having an economical car, but about getting away from using petrochemicals. I have had a lot of success with the Nissan Terrano, but this car is 1950 kg dry weight and although goes well on the motorway, handles like a pig and is just not very exciting. The torque provided by the standard 2.7 Dti is OK, but the '96 is only 100 hp unchipped. W/ a chip for the Zexel injection pump, I can get 125 HP, but no weight reduction. I want a lighter car, so the VW Golf is an option, but I Golf / Jettas are just not my cup of tea.

My requirements are as follows:-

- Car must run on alternate fuel, such as Biodiesel (if not 100%, then at least a 50/50 mix to start). I can make biodiesel, not Ethanol, so diesel it is. I can make Biodiesel myself for GPB 1.00 a gallon, so the fuel price is not a problem.

- The car should be made with bits pieces from used cars.

- The original HP of the petrol car should be equalled and preferably exceeded.

- The car should be a classic body wrapped with modern technology (aesthetics matter).

Best option, money no object would be the new 1.9 CDTI 150 PS engine / w tuning box for 200 BHP - without a doubt. Economy / power and classic looks in one package. But money is a factor and work required to perform this kind of mod is a few years away in terms of $ and availability. The new turbodiesels are indeed are a whole new kettle of fish.

So meanwhile we can a little lower with technoloy. I could go out and get an old 80s Isuzu Diesel to drop in, but that is such old technology which although simple, does not make for a very inspiring car. There have been too many advances in diesel technology over the last 20 years, especially re. GM / Vauxhall / Opel options.

Certainly, wiring fuel system, ECU etc, will be a headache, which is why transplanting everything from the donor car is a must, incuding loom / sensors - everything as to how the car is supposed to work. Gearbox rations and change to a north-south configuration is a considerable issue, but like anything, not insurmountable.

I liked the idea of the Ecotec 2.0TDi or 2.2TDi (?) ibecause of its compact design and the space requirements under the bonnet. The Manta A is originally a 4 cylinder anyway. I think it is a neat powerplant with lots of potential and will be more than able to light a fire under the lighter A. It is a later generation engine with all the headaches that entails, but still, it is probably the second most desirable option.

The lower-tech approach would be a Carlton 2.3 Turbo Diesels (which I did not know much about to be honest - are these the same as the Opel Omega?) are already set up for RWD sound like an option as long as there are no clearance issues with ancillaries in the Manta A engine bay. If memory serves me correctly, the Manta A TE2800 did have a petrol Opel 6 transplanted into the engine bay, but there was very little room to spare. Additional space for intercoolers etc. would need to be factored in. Being an older style diesel with an injector pump may not be a problem perse, as many of the older Merc Benz engines w/ modified Injection Pumps and larger turbos are pulling some very respectible HP with mods. The target to beat is remains the factory petrol Manta A 1.6S (80 HP) and Manta A 1.9S (90 HP). If a Carlton is the way to go, all bits from the donor car would be transplanted. The IPs should also have Viton seals as Biodiesel does attack non-synthetics rubber.

This last option may not have the high-tech appeal of the later Ecotec cars, but is probably a useful practical step towards achiveing this goal. I have started looking around at what kind of mods are possible for the Carlton / Omega engines and what kind of HP is being generated.

Thanks for all your continued comments / suggestions.

Cheers,

Ian B.

[Rick-Manta]

Well you seem to know your stuff with this Biodiesel. Sounds like a very interesting project to me and I don't even like diesel engines, so it must be good []

The CIH 2.3 turbo diesel seems to make the most sense, with the gearbox and the earlier technology it'll be the obvious choice. The power output is going to be more than the 1.9 SR block surely? I don't know but I'd guess 105bhp (i'll put a quid on it!) Sorry if I've mis-understood but what's the issue with the six cylinder thing? That CIH diesel would only be a four cylinder.

Did you like my forklift truck engine hybrid idea? [:I]

CHECKOUT MY V8 VIDEO HERE http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Djuq2xoCp1E

[garymanc]

would a lpg conversion make the manta more eco friendly

and cheaper to convert[]

16v monaco blue manta coupe

E862BOA

E850LRV monaco blue coupe

IN SUNNY manchester

[Guest]

Hi,

Thanks for your comments. Yep - forklift truck engine hybrid idea is

pretty cool . To be honest, I was never really a great fan of

diesels. Even worse, I like big V8 engined US-cars with high octane

engines. But economic realities affect us all and things are changing

daily. Back in the early 90s I used to live in the US for a while

(study / aviation) and bought a 1972 Plymouth Satellite w/ 400 CI 4-BBL (6.6L) to rod around in and drove across the country. That got 15 Highway MPG on a good day and to fill it up cost $20 for 20 Gallons. I had a ball with that thing. Years later after I left the US I read an article about biodiesel in an in-flight magazine and decided to give it a go and make it at home, using waste veg oil from our local restaurants (which they were happy to give me as it saved them dumping it). The only thing missing at this stage was long hair / tie-die T-shirt / leather sandals and Jethro Tull on the CD player . But it actually worked and not only did the exhaust small like fried food, there was no great cloud of black smoke when I punched the throttle hard on the Nissan. Economy was average, but this was more due to the weight of the Terrano. The only problem was that it would regularly clog the fuel filter due to elevated dissolved water content, but that was more due to my fuel making skills

more than anything else. I could also make it for about 1/4 of the cost of bought diesel.

In the summer here there are lots of outside festivals here

that go on well into the night, with diesel generators powering

everything from lights to music equipment etc. and electricity for food stalls etc. Dumping a 50/50 biodiesel blend into the tank changes the diesel stink to something more like fried chicken, which complements the food business pretty well, so already this is pretty useful. Japan is pretty tough on diesel at the moment due to air / pollution concerns etc., but many of the cleaner diesels should hit the shores in the coming years and there will probably be a reverse in this trend.

I am not here to preach about bioidiesel. It is not the final solution

to all the worlds energy problems, but it does provide a useful step to the next stage, whatever that may be, because it can be nade from

recycled or renewable resources (plants). There are lots of maybes, too - maybe oil is not running out / maybe global warming is a myth /

maybe the Easter Bunny is real. You can make your own mind up about those. I do know that petrol never gets cheaper and prices rise faster than my salary / wages do and I do not like being held hostage financially by people / organizations whose have an insatiable demand for my hard earned dosh and will not be happy until they have it all. If I can find a way around the system a little, then I think it is worth the effort, even if it is a little more complicated up front. Especially if the means to do so is already available and a little creativity is needed.

The pickings for diesel cars is pretty uninspiring. Diesel engines can

also be fussy (as I have found out) and cost a lot more to fix when

they break, too. They have a narrow torque band and tend to run out of legs very quickly, which is why the tranny selection will be important. I like classic cars, so the new diesels (apart from being expensive) are very inspiring technically, but leave me pretty cold aesthetically.

Admittedly there can also be an issue w/ Biodiesel on common rail

injection systems, but this may be more due to the fact that the cars

are not designed to run biodiesel, but petrodiesel. The power is there

to be extracted - it just has to be married up to something that looks

as good as it goes. I considered a number of options and merits (70s

Toyota Celica w/ 2.2 DT / Mazda 2.5 DTi MPV in Ford Cortina Mk 2, Capri or Hillman Hunter / MB Diesel SD300 in A-body Plymouth etc.) and a whole lot of other combinations. Weight is obviously a big factor that limits performance.

In the end I decided on a Manta A bacause I always liked them and my

brother used to own a dark metallic green 1975 1.6S which we spent many happy hours thrashing around (Windsor / Maidenhead area, if anyone knows if the car still lives). I like the style / weight / heritage and fact that GM Opel / Vauxhall has a long history with diesel. As far as the power output from a later Gen 2.3 Diesel is concerned, 105 BHP would be more than adequate, but if I can get more through some standard diesel upgrades, I will not turn it down. If anything would change the perception of a diesel / alternate fuel car, it will be aesthetics and performance that should exceed what the petrol version can do. If can boost the car up to say 130~140 BHP, that gives me a pretty good margin for the increased weight of the diesel and accessories and puts it into sportscar territory IMHO. Doing this to a Manta B would be even more straight-forward, I would imagine.

As far as the 6 cylinder is concerned, I though the Carlton was the BMW engine, which I also assumed was a 6-cylinder (I am still looking into this). I like 6 cylinder engines a lot. They sound great when on-song (either petrol or diesel, but they are heavier and may require too much structural modification to the car. I have currently joined the Vauxhall Carlton board looking for information re. extracting more power from the 2.3 engine and matching transmissions. If the Carlton idea works out OK, I still think this would be a good stepping stone to a future Ecotec conversion w/ later technology when donors are more plentiful and I work out what I should be doing.

BTW, if you have not seen what a souped-up MB Diesel can do, check out

this link.

* BD dos not smoke so much.

It is also absolutely correct that an lpg conversion would make the

Manta more eco-friendly and MUCH cheaper / easier to convert. But I

would still have to buy the lpg from the same companies, so I am hoping to keep experimenting with my own blends.

Thanks for your comments.

Ian B.

[paulmcclung]

Just out of interest would the 2.3TD from a frontera around a K or M reg not drop straight in.

OMOC Member #6072

Manta GTE Exclusive Hatch CIH Head polished n ported, piper cam, K&N N soon to be fitted with Dynotune Wet Kit.

[mantaray]

The 2.3 TD engine in the carlton and the frontera are the same one as fitted to the old bedfords, 4 cyl CIH.

Chris

Membership Sec.

OMOC 2150

http://www.mantacentral.co.uk ( The Midlands Area Web Site)

.........................

Before Now

[mantadoc]

Deleted

Edited September 26, 2017 by mantadoc

[opel2000]

Was about to say........ aint the 2.3 TD lump out of the carltons pretty much the same engine that was fitted to the Manta's?

but got beat to it

http://www.customsolutions.me.uk