Engine Wont Start

[Shug]

Gotten a bit cold and hunger set in so will have another go at it tomorrow morn!

[cam.in.head]

fair enough. i suppose its a fair bit colder up there. only zero here. fair few things for you to check thou. will log on later tommorow to hear how u got on. see ya

[Shuviteer]

In modern day parlance ,have you tried...........

SWITCHING IT OFF AND ON AGAIN !!!!

[Shug]

I work in IT. that's always the first thing that gets done!

[mantapaperman]

if your ''universal wiring loom'' wasnt made by yourself then bin that and hard wire it yourself using correct diagram!! then you will have eliminated that. it really does sound like a wiring issue connection problem!

dont give up. if you feel like beating the f****r with the hammer go inside and have a brew and think about it....

[Shug]

After a crash course from my dad in using a meter! I can confirm coil shows 12v with ignition on and 0 with it off.

Should I be getting 12v on both terminals of coil? Coil is securely bolted to inner wing. I definitely get changing signals off distributor on turnover. Already on second ignition module.

[mantadoc]

In a nut shell no.

It's like trying to syphon from one tank to another if they are both full to the same level nothing will happen.

You need a different voltage on either side, a potential difference, in order to get electron flow and do "work"

Don't over think it.

Remember when you had points? A live went to one side of the coil (12V cranking, 6 running but ignore this) and the points switched the earth.

A coil is a coil. Live still goes to one side, the amplifier still switches the earth.

Now the interesting thing is you get a spark when points open as the field decays, so most of the time points are closed, electrons flow and the resistance of the coil causes a drop in voltage across it.

So basically one side of the coil should be reporting 12 and the other side basically zero as it is effectively (well erm........) earthed and the earth wire is little or no resistance so should read zero....... enless that instant of sparking.

So in simple......... amplifier does same as points everything else behaves as it always did.

[Shug]

I also seem to get 12v off end of lead to distributor.

Anyone want to buy a manta project? Only 4 grand and comes complete with parts, hammer marks and boot prints. >

[cam.in.head]

good morning. yes you will get 12v on each side of coil.this is because the system doesnt operate the coil if ignition has not had any distributor signals for approx 1.5 seconds.this is to stop the coil overheating.therefore the 12v will flow through the coil & be present at the other side(term 1).thats why when you turn ignition on the volt meter jumps up slightly after 1.5 seconds. going back to the original diagram is how it should be wired up.(for a standard gte system) so as mentioned check for 12v at term 4 on ign unit & 12v on coil black wire (term 15) make sure ign unit has earth to term2,term 1 goes to term 1 on coil(also to rev counter,green wire).term 3,5 & 6 go to distributor .if youre not using an original wiring loom this may be where your problem lies. term 3 is brown/white to distributor pick up neg,term 5 is black/yellow to dist pick up +, and term 6 is blue /green to pick up ttrigger. all as shown in haynes book (carlton page 231) good luck. ps have you got & tried an original loom bit for that area ??

[Shug]

The original loom practically disintegrated when I removed it. It used to be a 1.6 with points n breaker. I was tempted to try old distributor if it wasn't broken. I have it all wired up as you describe. (as per Haynes manual)

I am at a complete loss what to do now.

[cam.in.head]

basically if the wiring is definately correct then it must be a faulty component.coil,distributor or module. even if the timing was miles out you would still be getting a spark. pity im down here in yorkshire. would like to help you get this running.. unless you fancy paying for a train ticket !!(hint hint!) any local members who can help you out . ?besides a 1.6 doesnt have an ignition loom anyway so you wouldnt have had the correct bits anyway.also a 1.6 runs a resistive supply & a different coil. i presume you have tried 12v direct from battery & have the correct gte type coil for electronic ignition. when you get this sorted you will need a new wire direct from the ignition swith term 15 to run it ( or use the old wire that used to run the electric choke .)

[Shug]

It's an msd blaster coil as thought the intermotor one might have been duff.

[cam.in.head]

sounds like you should start again from scratch. not sure what a msd coil is but obviously the bosch ignition system is designed for a bosch coil. (check resistance of your coil to see if its a 12v direct coil rather than a ballast coil .)bosch say 0.6-0.9 ohms on their unit,measured accross outer terminals (unconnected)i would say contact a local member & try obtain the correct gte coil,ignition amp & wiring set upOR .are there any good scapyards near you. any 1.6,1.8 cavalier mk2 with a bosch distributor will have the correct coil & wiring.or carlton 82-86,senator,manta,belmont,astra etc . if you want a chat instant message me later for my phone no.

[mantadoc]

therefore the 12v will flow through the coil & be present at the other side(term 1).

Specifically there is 12V on the other terminal when there isn't any flow as soon as it flows you get a voltage drop across the windings due to resistance.

[cam.in.head]

sorry mantadoc .il use the phrase appear then rather than flow !! either way it still sounds like a wiring issue .possibly with the 3 coming from the pick up in the distributor. pity he hasnt got an original wiring section/mini loom for that area. so simple then .just plug & play. dont know what effect the non standard coil will have. personally have always used the standard bosch coil set up & had no issues. its an interesting one this. !

Edited December 27, 2010 by cam.in.head

[mantadoc]

pity he hasnt got an original wiring section/mini loom for that area.

Good point.

1) Shug do you have a spare, known good distributor, and / or can you be bothered to pull the distributor so you can check your coil without having to flatten a battery each time?

Makes this kind of process quicker believe it or not.

2) I do have a spare distributor that can be used to check spark (been stored lying down so advance curve suspect) and I should have a complete amplifier and coil loom spare so if I can dig one out, give me a week, I'll send you a dizzy AND coil / amp in working order.

Rules are I get them both back within 6 weeks in the same working order (if I can find a spare coil pack)

[cam.in.head]

this is what i was thinking as well. at least with the correct mini loom it would be wired correctly. only 12v supply,earth & coil leads to connect up. arnt there any members near edinburgh with any bits ? its one of them things that we could get running in no time. more awkward when doin it over the net.

[mantadoc]

Well the offers there and seeing as it's been months would probably be best to take it up unless anyone nearer has known good to try.

[Shug]

Hi Mantadoc,

only other distributor I have is a battered broken 1.6 one on points.

I'll be delighted to take you up on your offer. This whole thing is seriously doing my head in! (not to mention holding up the project as I cant seem to do other things with this unresolved!) Up at my folks just now in Inverness (where the manta actually is! No wonder its taken me so long! )

[mantadoc]

Hi Mantadoc,

only other distributor I have is a battered broken 1.6 one on points.

I'll be delighted to take you up on your offer. This whole thing is seriously doing my head in! (not to mention holding up the project as I cant seem to do other things with this unresolved!) Up at my folks just now in Inverness (where the manta actually is! No wonder its taken me so long! )

PM me address and mobile. I'll post a dizzy and coil pack (need to find and test but pretty sure I have something).

Oh yeah, if testing spark issues LEAVE OUT the wire to rev counter. That will stop injection running but that male / female connector is troublesome so testing spark without = good

I've pulled the dizzy in the past and held it, without plug leads, with amplifier lead to test without wasting battery cranking. Coil lead positioned appropriately such as here

[Shug]

Had my meter on the trigger wire and the voltage seems to alternate by all of 0.1 volts. (around 4.7 volts. ) the + wire is I think around the 7 volt mark.

No injection or anything else is running off the module. Using bike carbs.

[mantadoc]

I have assembled an amp, bracket, wiring, coil and distributor and they are tested and working so should get packed and posted tomorrow.

[mantadoc]

Right I have posted out a tested coil / dizzy / amp / loom set today on 48 Hr. Tracking number in PM.

Due to the risk of injury I would never recommend a test procedure (shocked myself and threw a spanner across the room testing the above lol) but this is what I would do if it was mine to eliminate the faulty bits hence no warranty of any kind implied or given and no liability accepted for any loss or injury no matter how incurred.

First I would test a coil / amp / dissy and wiring, such as I have coincidentally posted to you by connecting a dizzy to the dizzy wire, connecting an earth to a spare charged battery negative (blue wire in the stuff I posted you) and red wire (conveniently left attached to the standard +12V feed black wire whose terminal mey be a little loose so beware) to the live. Coil HT lead needs to be within sparking distance of some earthed iron such as Coil Mount NOT AMPLIFIER. I wouldn't touch the HT lead with coill powered if possible..... Ouch Also sparks need to be kept from battery due to hydrogen gas.

Rotating the dizzy shaft should create a spark

Link to working dizzy and amp standalone

Next, with the original coil and amp setup on the car connected properly, I would attach the spare dizzy and place the (still in the engine dizzy)dizzy end of the coil lead near an earth and rotate the spare dizzy shaft to test the on car dizzy and amp without cranking. Make sure the on car coil, amp etc is properly earthed and that the black is connected to a live 12V feed which normally means just the ignition on BUT CHECK. This also requires the engine and battery to be earthed to the car

Link to spare dizzy testing on car amp

If you don't get a spark consider removing amp / coil / loom from the car and testing on the floor as in the first section.

Test coil by substitution.

If you do get a spark remove the engine dizzy and try it with the standalone to test it. Maybe fit the spare dizzy to engine and see if you get a spark / try to start.

Remember the point isn't so much to get car running as find the bad part as I do want my bits back. If you narrow it downto a coil /amp loom let me know and I'll dig out something for you.

There is also the possibility if you get a spark that you need to ensure the amp gets enough power to run when cranking.

Have fun, let us know how you get on.

The above may be a little egg suckey but hey mine works lol

[Shug]

Cheers phil, spent today trying to sort my audi engine as its misfiring.

I think whatever the manta problem is, its contagious!!

I owe you a massive beer!

[keith1200]

Shug i've got the hayes manual for that car with the 2.2! if that's any help.