19S 16V

[Stev0]

Hey guys..

I had a chat with a guy yesterday regarding the manta and he's adiment that there was a 16v head for the 19S motor that allowed it to make alot more power..

How true is this, and more importantly, are these cylinder heads still around?

[611]

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.jackson17/images/risse24v4cyl.jpg

[Shug]

Made to order if you have the cash.

And by cash, I mean a mortgage!

[rutts]

make your own cliff has.

steinmetz made a 16v head in the 70s for the cih engine.

cosworth developed it further and created the 400 cylinder head out of their own design.

[mantasrme]

The reisse head is well over £1500 from memory, you can just cut down the 3.0 24v head but its qute a lot of work what with the welding, bolt holes moving, camshafts etc etc

[monzta]

Yes there where several 16V heads and also 8v crossflow heads produced in very little numbers for the 1,9S engines, and this is before the cossie i400 16v heads, and the shortened 24v heads.

But they are not around anymore, finding one of those is as easy as getting a date with Beyoncé

Conrero a Italian tuner primarely for Alfa did a 16V head for the CIH engines around the same time as Steinmetz made one as well (and one for the 2,8 R6 cih). Conrero also made a crossflow head with 8 valves, and theese are still produced from original heads by tuning legend Uwe Gerent in Germany.

The conrero heads are sometimes reffered to as "sweden heads" for some reason ?

But theese old heads are not as good, and on a 1,9 engine they will add around 25-30hp at the top end. Remember that theese where not street items, they where purely for racing.

If you want some more power from your 1,9S the 170hp mark is within reach for a reasonable amount of cash. Get the block refurbished with new bearings etc, a 1,6S crankshaft, original rods and pistons, take a couple of kg´s off the flywheel, a 2,2 or 2,4 head with 1mm bigger valves from a Carlton C3,0NE engine, a fast street camshaft and a set of 40 webers and you will have around the 170 bhp.

Using conventional tuning items that can be bought off the shelf the rule of thumb says that you can get 10hp pr ccm from the CIH´s so 190bhp from a 1,9 engine is not impossible. Getting it above 200hp will present a challenge though, and street drivability will suffer greatly.

Cheers, Ruben

Edited May 3, 2012 by monzta

[Stev0]

Thanks for the response..

Reason i'm asking is that i'm still deciding whether to keep the old lump or go family II motor.. if those motors are capable of 170hp then i'm quite inclined to try and keep it.. i'm not interested in building a monster, just want something that's going to run strong..

I suppose the quickest and easiest way of gaining bit of power is by replacing the viscous fan with an electric unit etc..

what were the differences between the 1.9 and 2.4 cylinder heads? are those heads susceptible to a good gasflow and porting?? is the 1.6S crankshaft lighter than the 1.9S? if i remember correctly they had the same stroke?? flywheel is easy, can source valves from what's available..

trick is going to be the sidedraft manifold and camshaft.. i suppose you guys can direct me toward those items??

thing is, CIH motors are becoming scarce and scarcer still are parts for them.. If i drop a 20SEH motor in, i can pick and choose from any duration and lift camshaft and normal wear and tear spares are readily available..

[Shug]

Kent and catcams do cams for the CIH.

Manifolds can be got from webcon.

I'd say 170bhp in a car weighing about 950kg would be pretty powerful. On a power to weight ratio, its not far off an audi S3.

[monzta]

150bhp feel like nuts in a A series, and its an extreme experience. Not as much the acceleration, but more the handling of the car and the noice. When your side windows pop out to the outside of the rubber frame you know physics are involved

Regarding the 1,9 engine.

2,2 or 2,4 head (they are similar) has raised intake ports, so the bend in the intake down to the valves is not as sharp. The best ported 1,9 and 2,0 heads are still no match for a stock 2,2 or 2,4 head.

They also have big valves, but can take the 1mm bigger valves from the C30NE engines.

1,6 crankshaft has the same specs as the 1,9 but its a bit lighter and has got double counterweights like the 2,4 engines. This makes for a very safe engine as there is no "wobble" in the crankshaft. 1,9 and 2,0´s usually break at the cyl 4 main bearing, and this issue is eradicated if you use a 1,6 crank.

Lightened flywheel as you say, and a good sportscam. Those can be bought alot of places, several UK manufacturers exist, and there are also Risse, ENEM, Mantzel, HIPO and alot of other companies delivering good street race cams in the rest of the EU.

A set of 40 webers or dellorto´s with 36mm venturi´s would be the best for street use and this will take some £ of your budget as the intake manifolds for the 2,2 and 2,4 are pretty expensive. Drawings can be downloaded for making your own ones in steel, and this is not such a bad idea actually. Opeltuners is the place to look for this. If you choose to buy them keep away from the DBilas ones, they are utter crap.

Electric ignition from a GTE Manta is also preferrable, or if you want to go really full out on the ignition side of things, go for a set of optronic ignition from Lumenition.

Good luck with the build

[Stev0]

If i get 100kw (131hp) i'll be more than satisfied.. i've got an astra mk2 pushing 95kw (125hp) and that thing is faaaast..

don't want to have to change too many things on the manta anyway, if i'm keeping the CIH, then i might aswell keep as much of it original as possible, which won't be the case at 175hp..

I've managed to source a 1.6 motor, but it's recently been completely redone so i'm hesitant to split it again just for the crank.. just gonna be tricky finding a 2.2/2.4 head and manifold..

whats a safe size to bore the 1.9 block?? i've heard of those things being opened up to 2.4!

[monzta]

Thats true but there are several oppinions on that subject. Some has had them bored to a massive 2,7 litre volume, others say they are already almost maxed out. This has lead me to believe that there may be 2 1,9 engine blocks.

Anyway, without going completely bananas on you old 1,9 the rule of thumb is that you can get your volume x 100 in hp fairly easy when tuning CIH´s . So 190 hp is actually within reach on a 1,9 bore engine.

If your goal as you say is 130+ hp i would never go through the trouble of adding to the volume. This is old school tuning, so keep it as a 1,9 is my advice.

Install your 1,6 crank, you dont have to take the 1,6 completely apart for this, just remove the oilpan, and take out the crankshaft, install it as it is in the 1,9. Lighten your flywheel 1-1,5 kg and dont bother with the 2,2 or 2,4 head. Just keep the 1,9 head as it is.

When you already have a complete 1,6 engine i will suggest you take the solid lifters from this engine and install in your own. Raise the oil level of the head by mounting a short steel tube in the oil return hole at the back of the head. Install a reasonable street cam of some sort, and remember to tell the retailer that you plan to run solid lifters. This will give you a cam with a better lift than with the hydraulic ones = more power for your buck But keep the revs down, so don´t get a cam that delivers power at 7000 rpm. 6000 rpm should be fine for the stock internals of a 1,9 when using the 1,6 crank.

Fit a set of 40 webers (or even better, dellorto´s) with 36mm venturis, and when doing this on a 1,9 head you can propably get some intake manifolds cheap second hand. But again try to keep away from DBilas stuff.

You should fit a GTE type exhaust manifold (bolts straight on) and use a 2" sports exhaust of sort, i always recommend a Simons exhaust but others may be just as good or better.

This will without a problem deliver you the 130bhp and propably more. Get it trimmed on a rolling road.

If possible get the crank balanced with the lightened flywheel.

Thats it. The easy way to get good power out of the old CIH lumps, and a absolutely evil sound

[611]

Hey Ruben

Hope your well?

I think you might be right on the block as the 1.9 i had in mine was bored out to take 95.5 pistons and i think was an early 1.9 and it still has loads of thickness to the liners, but when i looked at the 1.9 out the back which was a late one and just standard there doesn't look to be much room to bore it out as it has lees than the bored out one!

Im with you on keeping the 1.9 and doing some work to it as the 2.2/2.4 heads, as im finding out are expensive:-)

Ran the 1.9, 2.0l head with big inlet valves, flowed and twin 45's and had about 130/140 bhp and that was with a mild cam :-) and the exhaust was a bit big at 2 3/8 inch should have used 2"

i have a set of inlets for sale for twin carbs if you go this route StevO, i also have a clutch with lightened and balanced flywheel that im going to be selling!

You wont need to spend that much on your 1.9 to get some good power out of it, but go the 2.2/2.4 and i know you can get more power, but its an expensive route ;-) Inlets for 2.2/2.4 180 euros from Risse and you need to mess about with the thermostat or buy an expensive one from Risse!!!

I hope some of this helps. And they do sound sooooooo nice on the twin carbs.

Andy

Edited June 3, 2012 by 611

[Stev0]

@ 611 - could it be the difference between the 19N and 19S that causes the difference in liner thickness??

In order to bore it to 2.0 you'd need 95.5mm pistons.. not sure if i want to take as much as 100thou off the original 93mm in any instance, provided mine is still original bore i'd probably go 40thou (1mm), or whatever piston i can get closest to 94mm diameter.. that would give me a displacent of around 1923cc.. because its such an old motor i'd like to bore it out a bit and have fresh cylinders..

monzta has gotten me very keen on the 2.4 head idea, but i'll have to look at availability of those over on this side before deciding.. 611 pm me and we can have a chat about those inlets, i'll have to do a comparison on the clutch and flywheel (maybe it's cheaper to have my own done here than ship yours over) but it seems like quite a straight forward exercise getting the 1.9 up to 130horses.. biggest issue will be having a custom exhaust manifold made up, as the GTE never featured in South Africa, and even if it did, the chances of finding a good exhaust manifold will be less than nothing.

If i'm going twin sidedrafts, i could easily go 280deg on the cam, since every cylinder's got it's own venturi, the idle won't be too erratic.. i have a set of weber 40's at home tuned for a 2.0 motor so that's sorted, 52mm (just over 2") on the exhaust, i think that'll be a good start. raising the oil level won't be an issue either, i'm just going to have to do my homework thoroughly on cam durations, lift and rev-ranges..

The reason i wanted to go family II motor was because of the 86mm stroke, hence more torque.. i don't want a screamer from this car, she must grunt!! so i want nice torque low down, not a huge fan of taking things past 5000rpm..

are there any other cranks that fit straight in with a bigger stroke?? coz then i can shorten the conrods and stroke her out to better gains..

[monzta]

Well you can use 2,1 and 2,3 diesel cranks, and 2,2 and 2,4 cranks. There are also 2,7 cranks but they are hard to find..

However i wouldn´t do anything to the 1,9 engineblock at all. Only thing would be if you could get a hold of a complete 2,2/2,4 engine..

Regarding the heads, 2,2 and 2,4 heads are similar on the spot, so either one will give you the desired effects. They are often available on german Ebay. Regarding the exhaust you will need a GTE exhaust manifold. They fit from any CIH powered car, so if you have 4 cyl CIH powered cars like the Rekord´s, Omega´s or whatever in SA you should find one of theese. All CIH exhaust manifolds will fit as they are the same (1,9-2,0-2,2-2,4). If you make one yourself, or buy a header type manifold you will loose torque.

40mm Webers with 36mm venturis sounds right. 280 degree cam sounds a bit on the mild side, but if you can get one with a good lift and duration 280 should keep the revs down around the original specs.

Good luck with the engine build Those CIH´s may be old school but man can they be tuned with almost no effort..

[Stev0]

So you're saying i should keep the sub-assembly 100% the same, except go 1.6 on the crank.. Take 1 - 2kg's off the flywheel, balance the whole lot together, flow and port the 1.9 head with bigger valves, raise cylinder head oil level, stick a 288 cam in with twin 40's running 36mm venturi's..

Re this GTE exhaust.. Whats the difference between the stock 1.9CIH exhaust manifold and the GTE one?? will the stock manifold still yield better torque specs than a header which is made up for the motor??

the 2.2's are readily available in SA in the form of the rekord berlina:

http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NzY4WDEwMjQ=/$(KGrHqR,!ioE9eOwfmnUBPpsLfS58w~~48_35.JPG

i think the 2.4's are more scarce, haven't seen any anyway..

Is the issue with the thermostat port difference between 1.9 and 2.2 quite a tricky one to get around?? think i should just get the entire 2.2 lump then.. what obstacles are there using the whole 2.2 motor?

Edited June 11, 2012 by Stev0

[611]

Hi Stev0

The thermostat is an easy one to sort out if you buy the modified version from Risse

http://www.risse-mot...-2-2-4-CIH.html

You could just drop in the 2.2 run that but i think like mine it comes down to what work the 2.2 needs doing to it as most of them seem to be high mileage.

So you could end up having that re-bored etc.. so which engine do you do the work on? the one you have that you know is all ok or the 2.2 that you have just bought.

I think the 2.2 head would be a good move and i dont know what crank they have but if its a longer stroke you could use that.

A couple of those links i sent are good for getting the bottom end bearings if you have to have the crank ground and use oversized ones.

As with the 2.4 i think it was mostly the frontera's.

Andy

Edited June 11, 2012 by 611

[Stev0]

as i havent started work on the 1.9 yet, maybe i should just source a completely seperate 2.2 or 2.4 and focus all my resources into that motor..

[611]

it might be worth doing a few calculations on what it would cost to get the 1.9 up to the spec you want and one for what it would cost to buy and tune the 2.2/2.4

as with the 1.9 you will basically be taking what you have and maybe looking for a few new parts for it as well as the tuning work but with the 2.2/2.4 you will need new inlets, flywheel, clutch, thermostat and some other bits before you start on the tuning.

Anyone else got any thoughts of the pros or cons of the two options?

Andy

[Stev0]

well if i do go for the 2.2 idea, i'll buy off the entire vehicle and transfer everything across.. even keep the diff, driveshafts etc just in case... then scrap the car..

[611]

Sounds like a plan. let me know how you get on and if you dont go the 2.2 route and decide to do the 1.9 let me know if you want the inlets.

Andy

[Stev0]

i might still want them.. what price are you looking for?? shipping?

[611]

I put them on for £70 but no takers so we can work out a better price. I need get get a bit back on them to cover the cost of those Risse ones :-)

Let me box them up and get a quote first and then if the postage isnt too bad we can work a deal out.

Andy

[Stev0]

pm sent mate

[Stev0]

so tell me guys.. i've been to ebay.de and the DBilas ones look pretty styling.. what's the hang up with those??

[monzta]

You will be spending a day removing all sorts of crap from the internals of them, and the mounting angle sometimes are not the same. Also the plastic gaskets for the carbs are crap and cannot be used as they will let air in. The spring pressurized screws that sometimes accompany them cannot be used as the springs are too soft. All in all not a great buy..