19S 16V

[611]

That's more expensive than the Risse ones!

http://www.risse-motorsport.de/product_info.php/info/p2404_Inlet-manifolds-2-2-and-2-4-ltr--CIH.html

The ones on ENEM look nice

http://www.enem.se/katalogen2.asp?menyid=2&B1=Visa+kapitel

but a bit more expensive :-)

Andy

[Stev0]

Okay... that sorts that out... another thing that's troubling me is the radiator.. will the stock 1.9 manta radiator be able to cool a modded 1.9 or 2.2?

I've checked if i can't fit a more efficient crossflow radiator, but the space available between the two bonnet hinges is minimal, bit less than 600mm.. thinking of removing that shroud and bolting the radiator directly to the cradle too..

also, the viscous fan saps alot of the power, so i was toying with the idea of putting an electric fan in with a sensor in the thermostat housing..

anyone done this or have advice??

Edited June 16, 2012 by Stev0

[Shug]

I used a 2.0 gte radiator with an electric fan. So far its kept it at a nice steady 90 degrees. (2.2 with bike carbs)

I have an inline hose sensor.

[monzta]

I can second what Shug says. A GTE radiator and a Kenlöw fan works. Alternatly you can rip off a electric fan from cars that use them originally but there isn´t much room.

Also if you are concerned about the cooling i would reccomend a oil cooler set. The adapter to fit between oilfilter and engine can be taken from any Senator / Monza straight 6 car. Then all you need is a oil radiator and tubing.

Regarding the intake manifolds. I will strongly recommend ENEM, or Dellorto.co.uk they also have a set, but they are very pricy...!

[Shug]

You are a bad influence monzta!

There I go to the enem site, just for a peek. Now I want to supercharge my 2.2...... (at least I'm assuming that I do. my swedish isnt very good! lol)

Edited June 18, 2012 by Shug

[Stev0]

i'm thinking i should probably try and get my hands on a complete 2.2 Rekord Berlina, and then go from there.. that should also have a decent radiator..

[611]

Nice alloy rads about for the A, but expensive :-) got mine from Summit racing in the US

http://www.theopelproject.com/?p=22

and i found that you can run twin small kenlow fans and sit them at the top of the rad so they pull/push the air from through the grill as with the big fans it will be hindered by the lower valance unless you vent that. No got a picture fitted to show you but can take one of the fan setup as there on the floor of the garage waiting for the rad to go in ;-)

Andy

[monzta]

You are a bad influence monzta!

There I go to the enem site, just for a peek. Now I want to supercharge my 2.2...... (at least I'm assuming that I do. my swedish isnt very good! lol)

LOL, yes i know, but if its any consilation i am also a bad influence to myself

ENEM has got the stuff. An often completely overlooked company when talking about CIH tuning parts, and they have massive experience from Rally racing with the CIH.

Regarding purchasing an entire Rekord 2,2 i think thats a superb idea. Will give you everything you need + a 5 speed Getrag box too.

[Stev0]

i've already got the box hiding in the back of the garage, picked it up for 25quid, but i'll have to fork out alot more that that for a complete berlina.. they go for around 2500pounds, but i'll scratch around the scrapyards, maybe i'll have better luck there.. if i'm lucky i can pick one up for a bargain..

will have to see if i can source appropriate fans for the existing rad, but the engine mounted one's gotta go!! some say the copper cores are more efficient, others say not..

will keep you guys updated..

[monzta]

Another option to the 2,2 is a c30ne engine from any Senator, Omega, Carlton what ever you have where you live. A big straight 6 with the cheapest 180 bhp you will ever fint works very well in a A series car, if you do something to redistribute the weight a bit. Like on the TE2800 Manta´s

[Stev0]

wow.. i've considered that, the straight 6's are quite easy to find here, the appear in the chev commodores and some others.. didn't the TE's undergo vast modification to fit the motor in, to the likes of bonnet, cradle and such???

if i get to 130bhp i'll be perfectly satisfied.. the other option is the old opel CD 380 rekord V6 motors.. don't know if the UK got them, but they're about 180bhp stock standard.. sound nice too... and dirt cheap to boot..

Edited June 29, 2012 by Stev0

[monzta]

The straight 6 requires very small modifications to fit. The biggest changes are to the front end as the radiator needs to be placed all the way out at the front grill. The front need some modifications to fit the radiator, and a U piece of metal needs to replace the old straight bit out at the front. But thats about that. Engine mounts for the engine and a oilpan that fits, + of course some work fitting an exhaust system, but none of the changes needed would be what i would call "radical" changes.

What they did with the TE (i have written alot of E-mails with the inventor of the TE Mr Vic Heylen who have also created a register to search for all remaining cars http://www.te2800-register.be/en/node/23) was that they redistributed some of the weight to make the straight 6 Manta have aproximatly the same weight aspect as a GT/E Manta A. They made the frontpanel, frontspoiler and front bumper in one piece of fibreglass, also front wings and hood was fibreglass. The battery was relocated to the trunk. As Manta A metal parts (hood and frontwings) actually are quite heavy bits, fitting fibreglass parts really was a big change.

My brother is currently building a replica, and we have 3 of the 142bhp 2,8S ltr engines to play with

Really worth considering ?

[Stev0]

awesome!! i've got 3 manta bodies to play with.. going to try keep this one as asthetically original as i can, bar the sidedrafts.. so it's great that the 2.2 looks alot like the 1.9.. those 2.2's are laaaaaaaazy in stock form, drove in one yesterday, almost changed my mind!! you sure those motors hustle??

i've seen a video of that swedish guy with his silver 2800 rip the track up on a drift day with his straight-6, absolutely AMAZING!! one day when i'm big i might try my luck with knocking together one of those.. gotta start small for now i suppose..

[lamchop77]

I can testify to the 2.2 motors. Think they are awesome. Mine was about 180bhp with bog std bottom end only l+b done to it and a 2.0 blydenstein head,kent cam and 48's. Could eat red tops with 45's on no prob, kept on the tail of millington 8v engines, yeah they were more powerful but they didnt have the same grunt out of the corners.

Some of the last races i did were up against Exon redtop powered starlets, i could outdrag them from the corner to halfway down the straight then their cams n 16v kicked in but it wasnt enough to catch up. Most guys i raced were amazed how quick it was, alot thought it was a tuned red top!!!

Given up grassing cos its too expensive so i'm now building a morris minor with a sierra rear end and prob an F2 stock car or modified manta front end for track days and possibly hillclimb n sprints. That will have my long stroke 2.3 CIH engine in it and should be over 200bhp with loads of torque......we shall see!!

Chris

[Stev0]

thats good news lamchop, but you agree in stock form the 2.2's are useless??

i'll only be running 40's but i'd like to get a decent duration/high lift camshaft and some serious headwork.. whats the bore/stroke on the 2.2's?

[lamchop77]

They're not useless, they were made as an economy/torque engine. Changing the cam,carbs etc makes a massive difference as they are really restricted by the injection system and cam. Bore is the same 95mm and stroke is from memory 77.5mm.

Don't use 40's they're not big enough!!! 45's minimum, my tuned 2.0 was on the limit for 40's at 160bhp and the 2.2 head flows way better than the head i have on that motor.

HTH

Chris

[Stev0]

45's??!! geez, those carbs are exponentially more expensive than the 40's.. i see the intakes i'm getting from 611 are also meant for 45's, as the 40's he's got on there in the photo have quite a ridge on the inside of the intake ports.. can't i use 40's with bigger choke tubes and jetted to the max??

strange that the 2.2 is considered a torque motor, as oversquare engines usually lean more towards revs and hp.. be that as it may, i want my manta to GRUNT, i want the low down power on tap.. i hate driving a car that you need to valve bounce before the power kicks in.. but with the 77 stroke it should be able to rev quite eagerly too.. 95 pistons sound like potential for bigger valves and proper headwork, coz the chambers are so much bigger..

first i need to acquire the motor to begin with.. are the gasket sets, seals and bearings hard to come by?

[lamchop77]

My 2.0 runs 40 with bored out chokes and it is absolutely on the limit, if not a little restricted. 45's is the only way in my opinion (i run 48's)

The valves will be 45/40 but you can go to 46/41 waisted stem type. My 2.2 ran a 2.0 head with these valves in and ported and was climb ing out of the rollers on the rolling road at minisport at a registered 145mph. Revved to 7000 no probs.

Dave Walker of ccc mag fame did some work with manta 2.0 motors. They did a test putting a 2.0 ported head from a known engine, which had already had power runs etc done on it, and putting that onto a 2.2 std bottom end and then repat the runs that were done with the 2.0. Gains were massive on the torque. The 0-100 time came down by a 1/3 and that was put down to the extra torque right through the range.

The 2.2 head doesn't need too much work as it is basically at a level which is equivalent to a fully ported 2.0.

Gaskets are basically the same as tghe 2.0 but you need extra valve stem seals which are easily available. Bearings can be had to source in the uk but Risse do them is sizes down to 0.75 undersize. Difference in price to new (not new old stock!!) is nothing, in fact i think it worked out marginally cheaper.

I've done quite a bit of work with these motors and have a 2.3 long stroke built up, just needs a modified dizzy to finish it and all the goodies for a 2.5. i think the 2.3 is probably going to be the quicker of the 2 as it doesn't have the rod ratio problem that the 2.5 will.

One thing, when choosing a cam from kent, etc go up one on what you think you want. The cams are listed for 2.0 motors, a 2.2 will soften the cam as the CIH motors soak up duration as the capacity increases.

HTH

Chris

[Stev0]

apparently ENEM are the guys to speak to regarding cams, as they have the ideal durations and lift specifically designed to give you an even spread of power and torque from 2000rpm right up to 6500rpm (won't be going any higher than that)...

45's are going to be a huge issue, as they go for nothing less than 400quid, whereas the 40's you can pick up for 100.. what motor can i source 46/41 valves from? the next question would have been the stem seals and valve seats, to accompany unleaded fuel... do i need to have seats fitted, as i believe the original spec saw the valve seat directly on the cast iron..

they say the 2.2 has got quite a good flow in the head and requires very little work, but i'll grind the inlet ports bigger at the small expense of seating area.. getting quite amped to start the build..

will the standard drivetrain, diff and torque tube withstand a worked 2.2 motor driven through a 5speed getrag box??

[lamchop77]

Theres no point porting the head unless your going to use 45's, the 40's will restrict flow, spend the money on the carbs!!! The std injection runs out at 150 bhp so whichever way you go you have to do something on the fuelling side of things.

The valves are from REC and are about £200 + a set, forget that stick with std valves cos your not revving it put the money to the carbs. DON'T make the ports any bigger as you will start to slow the airspeed if you do, a bit of a cleanup with 80-100 grit is all you need. Check Rallybob articles on Opelgt forums.

2.2 are all fine for unleaded. Cost you planned for headwork is prob in the region of £120 with parts.....put that money to the carbs.

Axle and gearbox are all fine with a 2.2.....your clutch won't be. I run a helix cerametallic paddle clutch. Cheap option is a calibra turbo non pot type, same geabox splines you just need to mod the flywheel.

If you go through ENEM then fine, let me know contact and shipping details cos i might need them for a 2.5 cam!!!

Cheap option.....Kent 244 perfect cam for the 2.2 in my opinion, a bit lumpy but thats what happens when you tune em up. The motor i ran had that in and pulled from 2000-7000. The torque of the 2.2 started to dip as the cam started to come on. These are available cheap and pop up regularly. Springs and followers are easily available. You WILL need to pocket the pistons for the increased valve lift.

DON'T spend any money on the exhaust manifold. The std GTE one is more than adequate, just clean the casting to smooth it out and run to a 2.5" system.

Don 't skimp on the carbs IF you want a quick motor,.

HTH

Chris

[Stev0]

so the 40's are even going to cut it for the std 2.2 with a light cleanup?? okay so there's no way around it, gotta get 45's.. what size choke tubes do they have, 40?

611 off the forum refered me to the following link http://tekenaar.opel...gtcamspecs.html for std cam specs of all the CIH motors..

does the 22E really have a 302deg std duration with 9.95mm lift at the valve?? thats quite huge in my opinion.. those figures look quite exaggerated if i have to compare it to other motors.. maybe i'm wrong and that's what they run on, but then how do you extract extra power?? go 324deg?? thats too much for my purpose, i want something that can still drive on public roads.. please explain..

so in essence, the head needs minimal work (i can screw it up if i spend too much time there), basically just a cleanup and a mate to the intakes, std valves with increased lift (typically how much should i be aiming for??), std pistons pocketed, 45's, fully balanced bottom end and a decent exhaust.. we never got the GTE down in south africa so will the standard 2.2 berlina exhaust manifold suffice??

i was advised NOT to take the custom branch route as i might screw up the torque curve, and bringing a GTE branch in from germany or UK is going to cost me about the same as the 45's, which is a scary amount of money..

with the drivetrain question, i was refering to using the std manta train.. i know the torque tube is quite flimsy, so it might be worth my while sourcing n berlina drivetrain and modifying it out for the manta (as i'm sure the rekord's wheelbase is longer than the manta's)..

If i reach 100wkw i'll be quite satisfied.. what are the % losses typically between flywheel and wheels?

Edited July 11, 2012 by Stev0

[lamchop77]

I would defo go with 45's with either 38 or 40 chokes.

Andy has picked the info up off gt forums which is where i get my info from. There is alot of info on there so i would have a good old read if i was you.

The 2.2 has a 285 duration cam but it is retardd by 5.5 deg and has lower lift than a gte. I have always had good results with Kent cams so i tend to stick with them because there are lots of bits around and you can still order new springs etc. Alot of places in the uk dont even recognise what a CIH opel engine is so asking them about cams is pointless.

I got some advise off rallybob and then looked at cam specs and went with the nearest that i could find. Cam theory can be a bit bewildering as altering the lobe separation affects one thing then advancing it does something else....i can't remember what does what but the info is on gt forums in some detail.

I have had good result with the 234 cam in a 2.0, guys at kent cams told me that the bigger capacity motors soak up duration so you can start going wilder with your selection. The 244 was a little bit tame for a race 2.2 so the 2.3 motor (2279) i have built has a 254 cam in it.

As for lift there is a formulae which i'm sure is the lift should be a maximum of a 1/4 of the valve diameter. So for a 2.2 head the valve lift should be 11.25mm maximum. These are basic rules so a CIH may tolerate more because of say the combustion chamber shape, or it might not. Only flowbench testing can prove that and i'm not at that level. Rally bob is and has done extensive testing so his advice is basically the best you can get.

I know that witha 2.2 l+b bottom end, decent head (which the 2.2 is...mine is a ported 2.0),45's, a 244 cam std 2.2 manifold, homemade 2.5 single box exhaust and std manta dizzy you will be looking at about 170-180bhp. That is basically my old 2.2 spec. Mine was about 175-178bhp, didnt get a proper printout because the printer was knackered when i took mine car in.

The torque tube is the only real weak spot, but saying that i've never had a problem with it. 200bhp seems to be the axle "bang" point.

Losses....prob 25% so could be 130 at the wheels, bt it will be massively torquey.

Put it this way, my opel kadett autograss class three car with road legal m+s tyres and a locked rear diff on a really muddy field, pulled a transit full of tools, wheels with the 17ft car trailer on the back all the way up the field which was inclined. The transit couldnt even move an inch...that was down to a torquey engine. Rob at the rooling road said it wasnt a really powerful engine but that it had a massive torque curve.

HTH

Chris

[Stev0]

is this what we're talking about??

[lamchop77]

That would be the puppy!!! If your ditching the injection you will need a different distrbutor as the 2.2 has no mechanical advance, its electronic. I just used a std 2.0.

Chris

[Stev0]

is the 19S dizzy also a straight swop?

Edited July 12, 2012 by Stev0