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i200 starting issues... help!!


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Lads - struggling to the get the i200 starting... she has being parked up for the last 5/6 yrs and I made a burst in getting her going a few months back on spent a few €'s on various bits and bobs...

on the fuel / ignition side of things all the following are new.....

new bosch fuel pump 0580464070

new filter

new injectors & seal kit

new spark plugs

new relay

new lines

She is starting with the easy start method...

She wont start on the key.

With the new relay when I turn the ignition on, fuel pump kicks in and is pumping petrol out the delivery pipe, but doesn't come through the fuel regulator (standard manta regulator & adjustable aftermarket regulator).  When I go to turn the engine over the fuel stops pumping - so it pumps out petrol when the pump kicks in on ignition and stops with I turn the engine over.  The fuel pump looses power behind when I crank the engine, and powers up again when I turn on the ignition!!

With the old relay she does the opposite -  when I turn the ignition on, fuel pump doesn't pump petrol out the delivery pipe.  When I go to turn the engine over the fuel pumps out the pipe - so it pumps out petrol when I turn her over and doesn't pump out on the ignition.  Hard to understand as the regulators are the same.. well the new one is Lucas - http://www.ebay.ie/itm/LUCAS-FUEL-PUMP-RELAY-FDB501-OPEL-GM-HOLDEN-COMMODORE-VK-VL-/181553195264?hash=item2a4569e900:g:6VUAAOSwI-BWKhS1 whilst the old one is the original.  I assume this is the correct Relay??

I have spark.. so this isn't the issue

Plugs are new..

She is starting with the easy start method, and keeps running..  

She makes an initial burst to start upon turning over initially (first 1-2 sec but doesn't start), but doesn't attempt again until the morning if I went at her again... 

if I had the injector plugs plugged in incorrectly would this lead to something??? or should she fire anyway... I swapped these around in case I had them back wrong and she starts on the easy start...

I tried the 2p trick on fuse 7 & 8 or 7 & 6 ...

Would anyone be able to assist?? would be greatly appreciated....or shed light on why the fuel pump doesn't kick in when I turn her over, but is live when on ignition... relays must be an issue if they are doing the reverse??  Would faulty ECU be cause?

Also tonight the new relay when turning on the ignition it starts to buzz and buzzes when I turn her over (quite a loud buzz)... the last few evenings she wasn't buzzing, whilst the relay is buzzing, 2 of the injectors are also making a slight noise... earth wires under the bonnet all look good, all new earths... so not sure what is causing this buzzing..

I haven't done anything new to that I was doing over the last few nights..  When I change her to the old relay it doesn't buzz.. What makes a relay buzz??

I'm at the stage of throwing the towel in and putting her back in the shed for another 5/6 yrs!!    

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If you have a live either side of the fuel pump relay and 2P trick does not keep pump running no point buying another relay, either:

Battery flat

Serious earth issues (or live lead)

Get a volt meter, this is going to be something simple like basic battery leads poor connection either end, engine earth strap (easily tested with jump lead) or the live feed on starter solenoid battery lead terminal loose, poorly connected / high resistance.  This is especially true if pump runs on 2p till cranked.

 

 

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22 hours ago, mantadoc said:

If you have a live either side of the fuel pump relay and 2P trick does not keep pump running no point buying another relay, either:

Battery flat

Serious earth issues (or live lead)

Get a volt meter, this is going to be something simple like basic battery leads poor connection either end, engine earth strap (easily tested with jump lead) or the live feed on starter solenoid battery lead terminal loose, poorly connected / high resistance.  This is especially true if pump runs on 2p till cranked.

 

 

Went at her again tonight and noticed before finishing up that the body of the starter motor is sparking off the gearbox bellhousing, as I crank the engine...

Therefore a bad connection somewhere.. I had changed the earth straps from the engine block to the body and from the battery to the body with modern earth leads and terminals in recent weeks..the old straps were deteriorating...whether this has something to do with her not firing or not???... must investigate again tomorrow night

I have a live either side of the fuel pump relay and 2P trick does not keep pump running

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If that is electrical sparking between starter and bell then an obvious either loose or dirty bolts / poor fit / wrong part.

For sparks to jump a gap there has to be a break in the electrical circuit and it jump the gap.

This is likely a huge common earthing problem killing the other circuits.

 

 

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I have 3 new earth wires on her again tonight.  1 from battery to body...  1 from alternator to engine block.. 1 from engine block to underside of chassis.. I also put the jump lead on the block and negative battery terminal..i ground back to clean bare metal in all again tonight and used copper grease..

Also put new positive cable from starter to battery...still won't start!!  With the new earth leads.. she's firing longer than last night but still won't keep going... so possibly cable issue somewhere.. 

The starter motor is new..it's a high torque 1.4kw starter motor..   Have 3 red cables running to threaded nut and 1 wire to pin under.

When I crank engine fuel coming up through pipe.. when I put on either fuel regulator i have fuel won't come out either side pipe of the regulator...vacuum pipe still on the regulator... should fuel not come out either side when I crank over with pump on??  What causes this?  

The pump is running when cranking obviously.  

Same thing happens if I energise the fuel pump relay from the battery..

Will have a look at other wires tomorrow.. what other earth cables should I be looking at in the engine bay??

 

 

Edited by barryi200
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It could well be any of the issues mentioned by the guys above. To be fair they probably have a good bit more experience than myself with Mantas. It really is going to be a process of elimination. Even more frustrating is the fact you've replaced a good quantity of the stuff that should get the car to run. I'm just wondering if it could be an issue with the engine getting air. Possibly the airflow meter not functioning correctly or the hoses could be perished and have holes in them. Perhaps a perished vacuum hose. Just a thought since you are getting fuel and a spark. I may be talking out of turn so I'm sorry if I'm leading you up the wrong path. I just thought this might be worth a try to be sure it eliminates that side of things.

Cheers 

Davy 

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Sounds like your fuel pipes are the wrong way around.

The fuel supply pipe from the pump goes to the T piece on the upper rail.

Then fuel return to the tank is connected to the regulator

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Reconfigured piping to this arrangement this evening.. http://users.telenet.be/jov/opeltuners/injmat/inj_conv.html still no joy.. the configuration in the Haynes is different.. has the  delivery through the regulator..

Allwires from the 7 pins of the fuel pump working fine..

Getting spark.

Hall sensor okay

Coil okay

All injectors have same voltage 11.4v and jump back between 9-10v on cranking..

Compression in block fine

I have a connector/joiner on the oil temperature wire to engine block showing 6.5v.. don't think this is the cause of my problem..?? 

Relay and pump is circulating fuel when cranking.. 

Tried bridging 3 main pins of regulator 80 87b 30 but failed to start.

Injectors are new old stock.so should be okay... will I be able to tell if they are injecting fuel by opening the black cap?  New seals with injectors and black cap etc..

Edited by barryi200
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Have the spark from the new starter motor down to poor contact with the bell housing due new paint surface and dirty bolts... have the 3 main earth's redone and the main positive to the starter motor.  Are there other main earths I should be looking at?? 

 

22 hours ago, D85CGV said:

It could well be any of the issues mentioned by the guys above. To be fair they probably have a good bit more experience than myself with Mantas. It really is going to be a process of elimination. Even more frustrating is the fact you've replaced a good quantity of the stuff that should get the car to run. I'm just wondering if it could be an issue with the engine getting air. Possibly the airflow meter not functioning correctly or the hoses could be perished and have holes in them. Perhaps a perished vacuum hose. Just a thought since you are getting fuel and a spark. I may be talking out of turn so I'm sorry if I'm leading you up the wrong path. I just thought this might be worth a try to be sure it eliminates that side of things.

Cheers 

Davy 

Have all new hoses on her bar the vacuum.. old one is good

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4 hours ago, barryi200 said:

Have the spark from the new starter motor down to poor contact with the bell housing due new paint surface and dirty bolts... have the 3 main earth's redone and the main positive to the starter motor.  Are there other main earths I should be looking at?? 

 

Have all new hoses on her bar the vacuum.. old one is good

It really should not be sparking paint or no paint if done up tight due to the bolts and if everything is sight together it should not go through the air.

As above make sure the fuel pump feed goes to the T piece NOT the regulator, easy enough to follow te pipes.

 

However, if the pump is running until you crank and then it stops you have an electrical not a pipe problem

 

You need to let people know where you are because this may well be one of those simple things that is lost in translation to the written word.

FYI if the green male to female wire that comes from the loom AND interrupts the ignition amplifier to coil connection, so as to power the rev counter, is not properly connected car will not run because the EFI uses the pulse to trigger the injectors.  These wires can crack inside the rubber boots and cause issues

Start adding pictures

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The sparking wants sorting out as that is not right. Did you paint the starter motor flange that sits against the block? if so scrape this back to bare metal so it can earth through and see what that does.

Now that you have the fuel pipes the right way around run a battery live through a switch and connect it under the car to the fuel pump. Then flick it on and try to start the car. If she fires and runs you know everything else is ok and it is purely the fuel pump not running at the right time causing your issues. Then report back and we will at least know if that is the only issue you have with it.

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Just a quick question.

From your first post you say " She is starting with the easy start method, and keeps running..   "

So did you have her running? and when you say "easy start method"  where you using easy start spray to get her to start?

 

Andy

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Very handy, but my thoughts were that if its starts and runs on easy start then trying all those other things might be looking in the wrong place. I couldn't get mine to start, but squirting some new fuel down each throttle body would get her going and run fine but it wouldn't start normally, so i spoke to webcon (who do my injection kit and they said its bad fuel?) i wasn't convinced but had done the same thing of trying everything else, so a quick google and it does seem that after 6-8 months the fuel loses it combustibility, so i drained out the fuel, filled up with super unleaded and it fires up from cold every time. So all those weeks i spent swapping leads trying different plugs etc.. was just a waste of time. All i needed was new fuel!

So when i saw that part of the post i thought Hmm, i wonder if its the same issue, might not be but its worth looking at all options. 

 

Andy

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The easy start method can be a quick start to help it start then it runs on petrol. Which is fine for getting over bad fuel/ weak cranking etc as easy start is way more explosive than petrol.

But it can also be the start and run it on easy start by continuing to give it a squirt once fired (watch Fast and Loud they do it a lot with V8's) As the OP had the fuel pipes the wrong way around (feeding into the regulator) it will not have been running on petrol at any point. So i am guessing the 2nd option was in use.

One of my customers after swapping his c30se engine hooked the fuel pipes up backwards and spent days trying to get it to start, he had it running on easy start but only while squirting down the inlet. Took 3 phone calls before i worked out he had the fuel pipes on backwards.

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