Kevin Abbott Posted September 4, 2016 Share Posted September 4, 2016 (edited) Latest arrival to Abbott Towers My little Brother Andrew was on the old tinternet looking for a Bentley ( as you do ) In the background was a wing from a Manta or so he thought, well at that time I'm on holiday and have next to no internet. So a day goes by and I'm in a better spot. THAT'S A MANTA! I cry Pictures of the car were sent to me and I asked what Andy could see. Not a lot he said as it's on the ground and in a nettle patch.. OK, pull the trigger Andy, we want this... It's a non sunroof GTE! Find another if you can for sale! Negotiations to view were made and the bloke didn't want to sell. A fistfull of money was waved and the car became available. ( We paid more for this than when I bought my first one back in 93!) The car didn't run as the fuel pipes were perished so it wasn't worth the risk to set it on fire so it was loaded onto the trailer. This was the first time we could really see it, looks good. Project images are available to Club Members Only, Click to become an OMOC Member. Project images are available to Club Members Only, Click to become an OMOC Member. A little green from standing. Project images are available to Club Members Only, Click to become an OMOC Member. Project images are available to Club Members Only, Click to become an OMOC Member. Hmmmm, the missing airflow meter top didn't show in my 3x2 inch iphone screen Just looking again and the FPR is different too. Now, Andy went off to get the trailer after we had paid and the bloke REMOVED parts!!!!!!!!! ( we didn't notice with the bonnet shut) Hmmmm, the funny coil and wiring too Project images are available to Club Members Only, Click to become an OMOC Member. Back to the unit and we try to get it recommissioned. Danny came to help. So many years of Manta experience on hand between us all New fuel, no go New airflow meter, no go New coil ( the one on it was wired backwards) no go New ecu, no go New TPS, no go New dizzy, no go New injection loom, no go New aux valve, no go New injectors, no go Complete plenum with tps and injectors, no go Dizzy cap, rotor, leads, no go Checked and re timed, no go Dizzy at 180 degrees out, no go Earths done, no go New fuel pump setup inc proper mount, no go Project images are available to Club Members Only, Click to become an OMOC Member. OK OK................... Fuel tank out... Rust! Sender unit removed and tank steam cleaned with TFR , nice and clean now.. Looked at the tank lines, hang on a minute that doesn't look right. So cut the lines... SOME BARSTEWARD had put a reducer and a one way valve from another car as a feed to the pump! Found the problem? Project images are available to Club Members Only, Click to become an OMOC Member. A fire ceremony was performed and offerings to Adam placed Project images are available to Club Members Only, Click to become an OMOC Member. So Tank rebuilt, lines replaced... Brum brum? No, so we checked haynes ( I thought I had the lines on correct) Project images are available to Club Members Only, Click to become an OMOC Member. According to haynes I had the line back to front... Swapped around Brum Brum? No............................ AAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHH Looking online my lines were correct, return from reg at rail Project images are available to Club Members Only, Click to become an OMOC Member. At this point the car was going to be offered to Adam in it's own ceremony! Project images are available to Club Members Only, Click to become an OMOC Member. 60 hours later it still won't run so a call was made to mates to help Carl came down " The exhaust maybe blocked?" So we cut the exhaust off Brum brum.. No " cam worn?" Head off, cam out.. looks a little worn so we will replace it... Shouts go out again, Andy Rutter turns up with a OP214 and solid lifters and a head gasket. I love that man Project images are available to Club Members Only, Click to become an OMOC Member. Head needs a rebuild so time to say sod this and get the old underseal off Stacker time! Project images are available to Club Members Only, Click to become an OMOC Member. A gallon of TFR slung on, aluminium fizzing, steam cleaner set at 130 degrees, suit up and here we go.. Project images are available to Club Members Only, Click to become an OMOC Member. Project images are available to Club Members Only, Click to become an OMOC Member. Project images are available to Club Members Only, Click to become an OMOC Member. Project images are available to Club Members Only, Click to become an OMOC Member. Project images are available to Club Members Only, Click to become an OMOC Member. At this point we waked away and put it back into the unit to dry ( Sat 3rd, last night,) back in the cars and home Sunday at 2am.. Happy Birthday Andrew Project images are available to Club Members Only, Click to become an OMOC Member. Let's fix it Edited December 14, 2016 by Kevin Abbott 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CalCol Posted September 7, 2016 Share Posted September 7, 2016 You didn't mention the fuel pump relay, Kev, but I suppose you changed it anyway? Do you get fuel at the injection system if you jumper the fuel pump across the relay? Lines from the wing to the injection system on the right way round? Feed at the front, return at the back. Cold start switch (the brown plug one)? Tap it with a hammer, usually works for me. Different chant or sacrificial offering needed? N. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Abbott Posted September 7, 2016 Author Share Posted September 7, 2016 You didn't mention the fuel pump relay, Kev, but I suppose you changed it anyway? Do you get fuel at the injection system if you jumper the fuel pump across the relay? Yep, 2 times, fuel pumping out by jumping the terminals at the fusebox Lines from the wing to the injection system on the right way round? Feed at the front, return at the back. Yep even though haynes is incorrect, checked by bridging fusebox with both lines off, fuel into bottle from inlet line. Cold start switch (the brown plug one)? Tap it with a hammer, usually works for me. It starts and idles great, it just won't rev Different chant or sacrificial offering needed? Trust me, it's going to get more than a chant, we know people who have tanks 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mantadoc Posted September 7, 2016 Share Posted September 7, 2016 2 things I know cause idle ok but cutout when trying to rev 1) disconnected AFM 2) I suspect loose wire crimped in the ring terminal from injection loom on the starter did this on my Manta, not seen the fault since I changed the terminal. I've come across 2other cars that have done this, one the owner cut up after spending thousands, the other, my brothers, did it for a day then never again. And finally someone on here or in the club mag forever ago allegedly resolved it with a new swirl pool thing in a hatch tank - I suspect they were wrong. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garymanc Posted September 7, 2016 Share Posted September 7, 2016 hope you find a cure seems to be slowing your production line down 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Abbott Posted September 7, 2016 Author Share Posted September 7, 2016 (edited) 30 minutes ago, mantadoc said: 2 things I know cause idle ok but cutout when trying to rev 1) disconnected AFM 2) I suspect loose wire crimped in the ring terminal from injection loom on the starter did this on my Manta, not seen the fault since I changed the terminal. I've come across 2other cars that have done this, one the owner cut up after spending thousands, the other, my brothers, did it for a day then never again. And finally someone on here or in the club mag forever ago allegedly resolved it with a new swirl pool thing in a hatch tank - I suspect they were wrong. To me the really weird thing was/is, that it still does the same thing no matter what we change. We can rule out the AFM as it's had 3, same with the full injection loom as its had 2.. We have changed parts between those parts to see if it changes.. It doesn't . It ' could' have a blockage at the tank but it's been off and cleaned out with Acid and steam cleaned up and down both ways with an industrial power washer that removes underseal! All ideas are very well appreciated chaps Edit, to add.. I did a compression test and it was showing and holding 200psi for all 4 cylinders. Edited September 7, 2016 by Kevin Abbott psi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CalCol Posted September 7, 2016 Share Posted September 7, 2016 Have you had a vacuum gauge on it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mantadoc Posted September 8, 2016 Share Posted September 8, 2016 have you done the hydraulic tappets with it idling? Have you ran it with throttle body switch disconnected? (in case it is stuck on max lean) With the AFM disconnected and it idling what happens if you spray some easy start / WD40 and open the throttle? If it doesn't rev then it's not the injection. Have you checked the cam is not badly out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H-400 Posted September 8, 2016 Share Posted September 8, 2016 I was also thinking the throttle position sensor... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulmanta Posted September 9, 2016 Share Posted September 9, 2016 Remove the little prefilter that goes in the tank to pump line. I had a GTE that did this, would idle all day long but try to drive it and the thing got fuel starvation. I only found it by "t" ing a pressure gauge into the fuel rail up near the injectors and watching the pressure drop to almost nothing when it revved. Took the main filter off and cut it open and found all sorts of mud, then took the prefilter off and dried it out, then tapped it on the desk a lot and loads of dry rust dust came out. Put another one in and the car was cured. I had previously done pretty much all the stuff you have done in your list above, tank changed, well, literally everything including head off and checked for cracks. I even fitted a new pump and filter but made the error of putting that one little black plastic part cack on because it "looks ok". Weeks of pain for a bit of crud in a gauze. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mantadoc Posted September 9, 2016 Share Posted September 9, 2016 On 08/09/2016 at 19:15, H-400 said: I was also thinking the throttle position sensor... It's not a throttle position sensor as such, it only knows closed and wide open, so max lean at idle and max rich on the fully open stop. Everywhere in between it has no idea what the throttle position is, hence why they run fine disconnected Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H-400 Posted September 11, 2016 Share Posted September 11, 2016 @mantadoc: yes I know, was thinking if the ECU gets a signal that the throttle is closed it won't inject unless idle. If you open the throttle (in this case) the engine will stall cause of to much air. @kevin: if you open that black cover you can check those tiny metal contacts, sometimes they are very dirty. It's worth a try... If you open the throttle you must hear a click. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulmanta Posted September 11, 2016 Share Posted September 11, 2016 Check the fuel pressure on the injector side of the system when running, check at idle and then increase the revs gradually, pressure should remain pretty much the same, if it drops lower then its a fuel supply problem. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/UK-MASTER-FUEL-INJECTION-INJECTOR-PRESSURE-TEST-TESTER-TOOL-KIT-GAUGE-/251963415237?hash=item3aaa309ac5:g:rjYAAOSwFnFV9o6n Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ANDY ABBOTT Posted September 11, 2016 Share Posted September 11, 2016 (edited) On Friday, September 09, 2016 at 13:03, paulmanta said: Remove the little prefilter that goes in the tank to pump line. I had a GTE that did this, would idle all day long but try to drive it and the thing got fuel starvation. I only found it by "t" ing a pressure gauge into the fuel rail up near the injectors and watching the pressure drop to almost nothing when it revved. Took the main filter off and cut it open and found all sorts of mud, then took the prefilter off and dried it out, then tapped it on the desk a lot and loads of dry rust dust came out. Put another one in and the car was cured. I had previously done pretty much all the stuff you have done in your list above, tank changed, well, literally everything including head off and checked for cracks. I even fitted a new pump and filter but made the error of putting that one little black plastic part cack on because it "looks ok". Weeks of pain for a bit of crud in a gauze. Funny you say that about the pressure gauge as when i viewed it the bloke had a gauge fitted to it i paid a deposit and went back to collect a trailer to bring it home on got the car back to our workshop and the gauge had disappeared Edited September 11, 2016 by ANDY ABBOTT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Abbott Posted September 16, 2016 Author Share Posted September 16, 2016 Thank's for the replies, Most if not all of the above in the posts have been done. Still a no go We thought it may be the cam so took the head off and pulled the cam, it looked ok but we put the OP214 in it anyway and checked the pistons. The engine has been out before we got the car looking inside and it looks new, it has new core plugs and the timing chain cover has been off. Project images are available to Club Members Only, Click to become an OMOC Member. Project images are available to Club Members Only, Click to become an OMOC Member. New cam in, timed up properly as it was out on the cam, all built up, Rutts came and set the tappets New fuel No go Arrrrrrrgggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh It still won't rev!!!!! New pump on No go Ran it from a can straight to the injection and back, still won't rev and bogs down Project images are available to Club Members Only, Click to become an OMOC Member. It has a stupid cobra alarm with anti hijack, so followed the wires and cut that out Project images are available to Club Members Only, Click to become an OMOC Member. Project images are available to Club Members Only, Click to become an OMOC Member. IT STILL WON'T REV!!!!!!! WTF is going on? Oh yea, we also changed the petrol tank. So, every single part of the injection system has been swapped for another over and over with used parts. It is the same no matter what we change Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulmanta Posted September 16, 2016 Share Posted September 16, 2016 Changed the dizzy, coil and amp ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Abbott Posted September 16, 2016 Author Share Posted September 16, 2016 1 hour ago, paulmanta said: Changed the dizzy, coil and amp ? Hi Paul, Yes changed it from a generic one that had a replacement lumenition amp and was wired with the black on neg and the green on pos. So I put a second hand original manta one on with standard amp, wired with green on neg and black on poss. Dizzy checked and swapped for another, same result. It looks like a fuel problem as it runs awesome on brake cleaner! But, we have changed all the fuel system fo 2 or 3 different alternatives and every time it idles but as soon as you try and give it throttle it just bogs down and won't rev Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulmanta Posted September 16, 2016 Share Posted September 16, 2016 This has been doing this for a long time and other people have tried and failed to get this to work. When you changed the injection I take it you mean the whole thing, inlet, injectors, the lot ? The external tank and pump, did that have a regulator and that satanic black pre filter in it ? Did you run the external pump from its own 12V supply so as to eliminate loom or fuse problems in the car itself ? Have you had a pressure gauge on the fuel rail to see what happens at idle/revs ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Abbott Posted September 16, 2016 Author Share Posted September 16, 2016 1 hour ago, paulmanta said: This has been doing this for a long time and other people have tried and failed to get this to work. When you changed the injection I take it you mean the whole thing, inlet, injectors, the lot ? The external tank and pump, did that have a regulator and that satanic black pre filter in it ? Did you run the external pump from its own 12V supply so as to eliminate loom or fuse problems in the car itself ? Have you had a pressure gauge on the fuel rail to see what happens at idle/revs ? Yep we changed the tps on the plenum it came with, then the injectors.. same result Then we changed the whole plenum with tps and injectors all the fuel pipes are new and even on the tank and injection rails, done that 3 times! External tank, we plumbed a new pump straight from the fuel to the rail and back out into the tank, no regs or filters. isolated 12v supply from a separate source Same result We haven't put a gauge on it yet as we haven't got one. will try and borrow one Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulmanta Posted September 16, 2016 Share Posted September 16, 2016 Have you tried earthing the engine block to the battery ? Also a new battery with new earth straps and clean up the + at the starter ? This might be 12V supply or earth problems if you have changed all that lot over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Abbott Posted September 16, 2016 Author Share Posted September 16, 2016 28 minutes ago, paulmanta said: Have you tried earthing the engine block to the battery ? Also a new battery with new earth straps and clean up the + at the starter ? This might be 12V supply or earth problems if you have changed all that lot over. Yep, brand new battery too. tested the injectors off the car and they fire plenty of fuel Could it be one of the sensors on the thermostat housing? We have tried it on 5 ecus, all the same code.. It will only start on 1 of them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulmanta Posted September 16, 2016 Share Posted September 16, 2016 Don't trust the 13mm bolt into the drivers chassis leg, they go rotten inside but look good and test good, When the injection and sparks are going on though they break down and become pants. Run a new earth from the passenger side, one of the engine mount bolts will do and take that direct to the - on the battery. The sensors are worth a try, the there are several and they each do different things, swap them out and see what happens. Email Nick webb for a list of what resistance and the purposes of those sensors, I am sure he has it in his head. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayne ingham Posted September 16, 2016 Share Posted September 16, 2016 Was working ln BL dealership (in 1987) .Had a car in that did not rev just been serviced at a none dealership. The mech was working on the car for 3 days befor he removed the air filter and the engine revved just fine(the filter was new none BL filter ) Try Removeing the air filter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Abbott Posted September 16, 2016 Author Share Posted September 16, 2016 Done all the earth's, added extra ones too all over the place, even to the ecu Even swapped parts from a running gte over to the lemon. Airflow off a runner Coil off a runner Same, won't rev It's fuel somehow, it runs mint on brake cleaner Done all the earth's, added extra ones too all over the place, even to the ecu Even swapped parts from a running gte over to the lemon. Airflow off a runner Coil off a runner Same, won't rev It's fuel somehow, it runs mint on brake cleaner It's had £50 of fuel through that system over the last couple of weeks, it's now had over 100 hours on the engine between people who have had mantas for years! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulmanta Posted September 16, 2016 Share Posted September 16, 2016 (edited) Its got to be sensors then, the brake cleaner has a different burn rate/flash point to petrol so the sensor readings are immaterial. Edit for clarity : Its got to be sensors then, the brake cleaner has a different burn rate/flash point to petrol so when you are running the engine on squirted in brake cleaner its running despite what the sensors are telling the ecu to do and despite what the injectors are squirting, you may even be able to run the engine on just squirted brake cleaner and no injecting going on at all ! Edited September 16, 2016 by paulmanta Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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