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Bonga

Track Manta

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Have this car at my brother's from before Christmas. Saab b204 engine. Loads of goodies. But it's a bit rough. Needs a proper tidying up. The intention was finishing the hatch before I even looked at this but the hatch needs a power of welding so thought I'd hit this one and try and get a few track days this summer the way it is.

I basically had a quick look at it and then took it to the testing station.

It obviously failed. Wheel bearing, wee bit of welding, water in scoosher bottle, wheels catching brake Flexi when turning and a number plate. Few advisories brake pipes to be clipped, tyres stretched on rims. 

All done, road legal now. Took it out a spin but something isn't right with the engine. Revs fine stationary but under load it sounds like a rev limiter at around 3000rpm. I think the ECU is limiting it for some reason. Although it's getting full boost up to this point 1.5 bar.

Needing loads done to get it the way I want it but it's a start.

1st I need to sort the brake set up. It's got ap racing brakes but it has to run 25mm wheel spacers to stop the wheels hitting the caliper. Which then makes the wheel hit the arch when on lock. Would be ok with 400 arches. Might swap them with my other car(calibra turbo/Audi discs) or sell them.

Next the suspension at the back is excessively high and the front is too low. Seems random. 

Here it is.

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Look at your bump stops on the front subframe, if they are about touching your swing arms the front and back springs have been mixed up. should be Long springs on the front and short springs on back. The longer springs on front is to supplement the weight of the engine, short ones on back have very little weight to deal with. 

I made this mistake building my one and had to swap them over. Sits better now. 

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Love this car, remember it on eBay last year. What size are your revolutions? 8’s?

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You could try looping the caliper, it means taking caliper off putting a loop, or twist in flexi, and rebolt it, and test it, wheel off and wheel on, 

Yeh, have to agree, cracker of a car! Hope you get it sorted, ecu could be in get home safe mode - it may need cleared, do some research! Google should help

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Yeah 8 inch revs. It had Borbet As but I don't really like them. The revs were on my other car.

Tried to fit the calibra brakes today. Didn't happen. The axle/steering knuckle has been modified to suit the ap calipers. 

What I did notice was that the ap disc is fitted on top of the hub not behind it like others I've seen. To fit the disc behind I'll need to have the centre hole made bigger. Once it's fitted like this I'll need to adjust the caliper position by shaving off the exact amount from the mounting position.

Bought 25mm hubcentric spacers which are surplus to requirements if anyone wants a set £50 plus postage. I'll stick them on the for sale as well.

And just to add was out on my Motocross bike earlier a quick blast. Conrod ended up through the side of the cylinder so not the best day I've had.

Also took the front springs off there very beefy, probably a bit too stiff and definitely too low. 

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Evo I've been on the case. Google is a great tool. What did people do before. Yeah I think that's what it is. It could be down to the boost 1 5 bar seems a lot. But I can't see a boost controller so think it'd done through the ECU? I don't know it's a job for another day

 

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Posted (edited)

Took both axels/steering knuckles off today. They have had spacers welded on for the caliper to sit right and the threads drilled out. Seriously considering just ebaying the ap brakes and getting calibra turbo brakes so the wheel sits at the right offset to the caliper.

 

Edited by Bonga

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Going to change the calibra brakes from my hatch as well as the axles and discs and hubs.

Going to try and put the ap brakes on the hatch but if I can't get the wheels to sit right ill need to change the lot including the axels as someone has drilled the threads out the mount (the threads are on the ap caliper).

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I'm going to fit a new set of springs  as the front and rear of this car doesn't sit right. It's Gas dampers fitted so leaving them for now  The front springs are very meaty red ones which has the front wheel hitting the arch nearly and the rears look standard black ones. Was looking through the forum and avo springs seem to be recommended previously. Where would be the best place to get them. Had a look on TJM but didn't have them on there.

What are other track day mantas running suspension wise?

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I'm running up front 40mm lowered spax springs with adjustable shocks 16", 5 stud Volvo rims. Saab turbo calipers.

Rear - Volvo locker diff, 4 linked plus adjustable panard rod, came with Volvo calipers and disc. Coilovers

Engine is 4.0 V8

Running Bias pedal box which goes through a remote servo, works very well.

Just came back from the track today at Castle Combe

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Sounds a good set up Jason. 

Did you do the coil overs yourself. I would imagine you would need addition strength and larger turrets. Same idea to what people do in escorts.

Do you ever use it on the road. If so do you find it ok?

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I didn't do this set up Billy, but am on the next. I had it done few years ago, the turrets kept the same but the tops are attached via a custom cage.

I have driven it on the road but bit noisey with the hard suspension. I've attached a couple of pic's

Project images are available to Club Members Only, Click to become an OMOC Member.

Project images are available to Club Members Only, Click to become an OMOC Member.

Project images are available to Club Members Only, Click to become an OMOC Member.

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I like the look of that!

The support from the cage will keep it all solid.

Spoke to Tim at TJM today and he's looking into a custom set up with the springs. Probably be better for track use than a set of lowering springs. I want it to be quite stiff but I also don't want it too low. Maybe only 30mm drop so I can keep plenty of travel for hitting bumps on the road. I was thinking avo springs initially after reading good things on here 

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On 01/07/2019 at 17:15, bris jas said:

I'm running up front 40mm lowered spax springs with adjustable shocks 16", 5 stud Volvo rims. Saab turbo calipers.

Rear - Volvo locker diff, 4 linked plus adjustable panard rod, came with Volvo calipers and disc. Coilovers

Engine is 4.0 V8

Running Bias pedal box which goes through a remote servo, works very well.

Just came back from the track today at Castle Combe

How do you find it handled with the v8? Mines been off road 5 years now but always used to struggle with understeer... shell will be a lot stiffer now it’s caged. Another month and should be back on track,  I think I said that a month ago though.... 😂

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Got sometimes the same feeling with my "400". Rear axle is also 4 link and diff is locked and front is cause of the aluminium head lighter than a normal Manta. The long wide curbs are great to take but the narrow curbs need to step on the throttle. Heard that also from rallydrivers that loved the Ascona-400 more. 

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Jamie I've seen a few of your post when I was looking through the suspension content on the form. Did you get yours to handle the way you wanted. Did I read something about disconnecting the rear anti roll bar encourages overseer rather than understeer. Have you tried that? What suspension set up do you use?

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On 03/07/2019 at 18:13, jamie077366 said:

How do you find it handled with the v8? Mines been off road 5 years now but always used to struggle with understeer... shell will be a lot stiffer now it’s caged. Another month and should be back on track,  I think I said that a month ago though.... 😂

Handles very well, i fabricated a new bulkhead so i could move the engine back so as to be central over the front suspension.

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On 04/07/2019 at 17:44, Bonga said:

Jamie I've seen a few of your post when I was looking through the suspension content on the form. Did you get yours to handle the way you wanted. Did I read something about disconnecting the rear anti roll bar encourages overseer rather than understeer. Have you tried that? What suspension set up do you use?

Hi there, it was kind of getting there befor taken of the road few years back. I had lots of good advise from here but looking on net etc I couldn’t find a definitive ‘lower by this much and use this spring rate’ I guess folks have there own preference for handling. Anyway... iv got koni front and spax rear shocks. Spring rates, I started with 400lb front and 200 ish rears, standard ride hight sold as ‘rally/fast road’. These were fine on road but way to soft on track. Had load of roll and still under stear. I basically had a car that was impeccable on road but on track understear, roll and lifting inside rear up and couldn’t get power down even with an old v8 that’d be no more than 200hp.I didn’t fancy spending another £200 on springs for just a stab in the dark so what I’m writing next is certainly not advice to anyone on what to do but was to help me find out what direction to go in. I cut coil out front= improvement but still roll.  Cut coil out back=turn in better but very very nervous on the limit. It was perhaps hitting bump stop which would massively randomly increase spring rate but also felt it had altered original geometry to much and it didn’t like it. Again next is not advise but was to help me have a better idea what to order next. I put some of those crappy rubber spring assisters allround that would effectively increase spring rate. I also rased rear back to near gte ride hight. This helped a lot, roll was cut down and no longer felt nervous on the limit. Unfortunately car was then taken off the road for engine rebuild and gearbox swap. However instead it sat in a garden for years! Iv nearly finished getting back on the road now though after much welding. A further point... I’d guess even then my shell would of been getting quite rotten so would be quite floppy, also was only poly bushes at rear.

long story short😂- 400lb -200lb springs way to soft for track. Lower back to much on standard set up it gets nervous. Rear anti roll bar... I think this was to try and keep back wheels on the floor... it will give similar effect as softening rear which will promote understear as you have less weight transfer to front on turn in. 

My priority atm is to get back on road and see how it feels now shell stiffer (now has roll cage and box in chassis rails) and take it from there. But in long term I’m going to convert rear to coil overs so will be cheaper to buy stiffer springs and play with ride hight. Also guys on here recommend more caster and camber. This will be next year though, get the dam thing on the road first. Sorry if post to long, had half hour spare!! 😂

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Not posted in a while but progress has been made.

I have fitted new lowering springs all round. Car sits much better now although still higher at the rear than the front. Might be better once the springs bed in.

Changed the brembo brakes on the front to calibra turbo set up as the brembos needed 25mm spacers running with them, causing the wheel to rub the arch. Cars looking good.

The main thing now is the engine. Can't get it to running right. Starts to sound like a misfire at over 3k rpm when you try give it some. Possibly the coil pack but I'm thinking it's the ECU cutting due to overboost 1.5bar. I've checked the APC control valve which controls the turbo actuator but all clear and work ok. So i think it could be needing adjusted at the ECU, remap on the list for next year.

Going to change the oil stick some fresh water and anti freeze and put it away till spring, as it's kept at my brother's as I have the hatch at mine.

Project images are available to Club Members Only, Click to become an OMOC Member.

Project images are available to Club Members Only, Click to become an OMOC Member.

Project images are available to Club Members Only, Click to become an OMOC Member.

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Good work Billy, she's coming along very nicely - best of luck getting the engine running sweetly  :thumbup

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