C24NE rebuild and tuning

[2400man]

8 hours ago, GTEPETE said:

Found this modded sump in my archives. Looks like its for a Turbocharged engine..

 

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Nice tidy job Pete!

[Jessopia74]

1 hour ago, 2400man said:

Funny you should say that Paul because going down that route has crossed my mind, once I've got it running with the standard setup. Not sure who does kits to replace AFM. Split Second in the states did at one point, conversions to hot wire MAF I think. The other option I guess would be to go down the MAP sensor route like on my 9000 Aero.

I already have a couple of local people who could do the TIG work for me on both the inlet manifold and the sump. Thankfully there's not much needed on the manifold, but there is port matching work, making mounting points for the fuel rail and stuff like that which I would do. Hopefully the MkII manifold will fit under the bonnet and the MkII sump wont foul on the suspension! 😁

 

Funnily enough O thought about using trionic 5 as it’s a party cool system, but it’s turbo based. For the MAF delete you can just use an aftermarket ECU (like Omex) that would be fully mapped. You would need to change the potentiometer on the butterfly but it’s pretty much would work easily. My MS2 setup as an example already has a built in but I am sure the Omex needs an external one, but as you say that is what is needed .

[GTEPETE]

On ebay, but may be a diesel one, looks too deep for a Manta...

[Jessopia74]

5 minutes ago, GTEPETE said:

 

On ebay, but may be a diesel one, looks too deep for a Manta...

That’s a beast of a dump!

Frontera is looking like the best candidate so far then. 

[Paul Barrett]

off top of my head You can run the Omex with-

coil pack

crank sensor

lambda

water temp sensor

Inlet Air temp

correct impedance injectors 

 

all doable on a modded stock inlet 

 

 

[611]

5 minutes ago, Paul Barrett said:

off top of my head You can run the Omex with-

coil pack

crank sensor

lambda

water temp sensor

Inlet Air temp

correct impedance injectors 

 

all doable on a modded stock inlet 

 

 

Yep, its that simple. I used the coil pack so now distributorless. You get the bare loom and set it up to fit as you want, nice and easy 🙂

[2400man]

22 hours ago, Jessopia74 said:

Funnily enough O thought about using trionic 5 as it’s a party cool system, but it’s turbo based. For the MAF delete you can just use an aftermarket ECU (like Omex) that would be fully mapped. You would need to change the potentiometer on the butterfly but it’s pretty much would work easily. My MS2 setup as an example already has a built in but I am sure the Omex needs an external one, but as you say that is what is needed .

Cheers Jess.

Of course SAAB did do non turbo versions of the B204 and B234 so I guess there must have been non turbo versions of Trionic? 🤔

12 hours ago, Jessopia74 said:

That’s a beast of a dump!

Frontera is looking like the best candidate so far then. 

Though Frontera has other challenges to make it fit.......like the bowl being off centre and also too deep.

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Hopefully the idea of a custom sump bowl being grafted on is doable.....

 

11 hours ago, Paul Barrett said:

off top of my head You can run the Omex with-

coil pack

crank sensor

lambda

water temp sensor

Inlet Air temp

correct impedance injectors 

 

all doable on a modded stock inlet 

 

 

 

11 hours ago, Paul Barrett said:

off top of my head You can run the Omex with-

coil pack

crank sensor

lambda

water temp sensor

Inlet Air temp

correct impedance injectors 

 

all doable on a modded stock inlet 

 

 

Cheers Paul. All food for thought.

[Jessopia74]

Yes they did make T5 with the n/a engines, but I don’t have any of those maps. Funnily enough I do have a 16v PSU and interface setup to tweak the maps on trionic5 and learnt a wealth of info from if the FB groups that are about these engines specifically. They are still a solid option and very smart system for knowing cam timing & antiknock all through the coil pack/plugs 😎 And works well with an R28 box. Still a great setup.

But the 2.4 lump us a great bottom end, it’s just the top end that limits these engines. Hence jumped on the CIH16 as soon as I could after I found out about them. There are some really snazzy (and costly ofc) CNC parts now that dress the head to look like a genuine 400 engine too 😎 

Edited August 15, 2022 by Jessopia74

[ANDY ABBOTT]

I'm about ready for dropping my 2.4 in the skip and putting an XE in my orange 240. What ball ache it's been and I'm now 12k deep for 140hp ffs 😤

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[Jessopia74]

1 hour ago, ANDY ABBOTT said:

I'm about ready for dropping my 2.4 in the skip and putting an XE in my orange 240. What ball ache it's been and I'm now 12k deep for 140hp ffs 😤

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Yeah, that one has been a drag on you for sure. TBH be worth spending the money on the CIH16v head conversion now, it will unleash the potential of the bottom end 

 

[ANDY ABBOTT]

10 minutes ago, Jessopia74 said:

Yeah, that one has been a drag on you for sure. TBH be worth spending the money on the CIH16v head conversion now, it will unleash the potential of the bottom end 

 

I'm not spending any more on it. I've had to draw the line for now 

[2400man]

23 hours ago, Jessopia74 said:

Yes they did make T5 with the n/a engines, but I don’t have any of those maps. Funnily enough I do have a 16v PSU and interface setup to tweak the maps on trionic5 and learnt a wealth of info from if the FB groups that are about these engines specifically. They are still a solid option and very smart system for knowing cam timing & antiknock all through the coil pack/plugs 😎 And works well with an R28 box. Still a great setup.

But the 2.4 lump us a great bottom end, it’s just the top end that limits these engines. Hence jumped on the CIH16 as soon as I could after I found out about them. There are some really snazzy (and costly ofc) CNC parts now that dress the head to look like a genuine 400 engine too 😎 

Yeah I must admit, I do like the idea of a CIH16

[2400man]

2 hours ago, ANDY ABBOTT said:

I'm about ready for dropping my 2.4 in the skip and putting an XE in my orange 240. What ball ache it's been and I'm now 12k deep for 140hp ffs 😤

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Yikes, I feel your pain Andy!! and can't understand why you're only getting about 140hp (as opposed to 140bhp?). Is that at the wheels? Is the head limiting things? Judging by the thermostat housing it looks like your engine has a Manta head rather than a Frontera one and the Manta ones don't flow as well, even with a big valve conversion. Does yours have that conversion? I'm using the Frontera head with the bigger valves, which I had gas flowed by Bill Blydenstein back in the '90's. The Superchips remap for the C24NE was supposed to give about 145bhp (up from 125bhp standard) and that was with the original manifold etc. I'm hoping to get 150BHP plus with the combination of cut down straight six manifold, C26NE throttle and modded head. Should have oodles of torque with it too.

[ANDY ABBOTT]

10 hours ago, 2400man said:

Yikes, I feel your pain Andy!! and can't understand why you're only getting about 140hp (as opposed to 140bhp?). Is that at the wheels? Is the head limiting things? Judging by the thermostat housing it looks like your engine has a Manta head rather than a Frontera one and the Manta ones don't flow as well, even with a big valve conversion. Does yours have that conversion? I'm using the Frontera head with the bigger valves, which I had gas flowed by Bill Blydenstein back in the '90's. The Superchips remap for the C24NE was supposed to give about 145bhp (up from 125bhp standard) and that was with the original manifold etc. I'm hoping to get 150BHP plus with the combination of cut down straight six manifold, C26NE throttle and modded head. Should have oodles of torque with it too.

Yes 2.0 big valve head, ported, port matched etc... Kent op254 cam, solid lifters big valve springs. My next move would be to swap out the nead but for now I've given up on it. It runs spot on now after the mapping it's just not giving the power it should so I'll just live with it for now as I'm done with dumping cash into it. 

[611]

1 hour ago, ANDY ABBOTT said:

Yes 2.0 big valve head, ported, port matched etc... Kent op254 cam, solid lifters big valve springs. My next move would be to swap out the nead but for now I've given up on it. It runs spot on now after the mapping it's just not giving the power it should so I'll just live with it for now as I'm done with dumping cash into it. 

Andy, you should have gone my route. Get its so it tuned nicely and so it feels quite quick on the road (mine seems much quicker than the fully tuned 2.1L i had) only spend a few K on the build then spend the rest on a Honda Fireblade which has 180bhp from standard and is bloody quick and you could get one for about 6K second hand now 🙂

But back to the 2.4 apart from running the throttle bodies the rest on mine is quite stock and the only other thing i did was used the ENEM cam (https://enem.se/ib.asp). Not sure if that more of a difference over the Kent? Not sure what power mine is as never got back for the full power run due to covid and probably wont bother as it seems quick enough and its not worth spending a few hundred quid to find out (+fuel there and back!)

Andy

[ANDY ABBOTT]

7 hours ago, 611 said:

Andy, you should have gone my route. Get its so it tuned nicely and so it feels quite quick on the road (mine seems much quicker than the fully tuned 2.1L i had) only spend a few K on the build then spend the rest on a Honda Fireblade which has 180bhp from standard and is bloody quick and you could get one for about 6K second hand now 🙂

But back to the 2.4 apart from running the throttle bodies the rest on mine is quite stock and the only other thing i did was used the ENEM cam (https://enem.se/ib.asp). Not sure if that more of a difference over the Kent? Not sure what power mine is as never got back for the full power run due to covid and probably wont bother as it seems quick enough and its not worth spending a few hundred quid to find out (+fuel there and back!)

Andy

It does feel quick on the road just not as quick as it should be be with its spec. It's a bit flat at the lower end but then hits cam and takes off ok. Just disappointing after what I've put into it.

[611]

32 minutes ago, ANDY ABBOTT said:

It does feel quick on the road just not as quick as it should be be with its spec. It's a bit flat at the lower end but then hits cam and takes off ok. Just disappointing after what I've put into it.

I had that on the 2.1 with a kent cam. This ENEM cam just seems to pull right through the rev range, but they aint cheap!

[2400man]

11 hours ago, ANDY ABBOTT said:

Yes 2.0 big valve head, ported, port matched etc... Kent op254 cam, solid lifters big valve springs. My next move would be to swap out the nead but for now I've given up on it. It runs spot on now after the mapping it's just not giving the power it should so I'll just live with it for now as I'm done with dumping cash into it. 

I was wondering if you might be running solid lifters and of course you would be with a high lift cam. I tried them once in my 2.0l lump with the standard cam, on the advice of a 'friend' and had a right nightmare! They came back out again after a week!

Hope you get the result you're looking for without spending shed loads more cash!

[611]

11 minutes ago, 2400man said:

I was wondering if you might be running solid lifters and of course you would be with a high lift cam. I tried them once in my 2.0l lump with the standard cam, on the advice of a 'friend' and had a right nightmare! They came back out again after a week!

Hope you get the result you're looking for without spending shed loads more cash!

The ENEM runs hydraulic lifters.

[2400man]

58 minutes ago, 611 said:

The ENEM runs hydraulic lifters.

I presume it depends on how extreme the cam is as to whether you need solids or can get away with hydraulics. I'm gonna keep to the standard Frontera cam for now but might be tempted to experiment at a later date....I still have the solid lifters stowed away....

Just been reading the post from last month about 2.2 or 2.4 head, very interesting! especially the advice about measuring cam timing. Glad I'm reading that now before I start reassembly 😁

[Jessopia74]

1 hour ago, 2400man said:

I presume it depends on how extreme the cam is as to whether you need solids or can get away with hydraulics. I'm gonna keep to the standard Frontera cam for now but might be tempted to experiment at a later date....I still have the solid lifters stowed away....

Just been reading the post from last month about 2.2 or 2.4 head, very interesting! especially the advice about measuring cam timing. Glad I'm reading that now before I start reassembly 😁

Woukd be better with GTE cam mate, or 2.0s

[611]

1 hour ago, 2400man said:

I presume it depends on how extreme the cam is as to whether you need solids or can get away with hydraulics. I'm gonna keep to the standard Frontera cam for now but might be tempted to experiment at a later date....I still have the solid lifters stowed away....

Just been reading the post from last month about 2.2 or 2.4 head, very interesting! especially the advice about measuring cam timing. Glad I'm reading that now before I start reassembly 😁

I think it depends on the cam maker as ENEM run hydraulic on most of their cams, even the more radical ones.

Was the timing about which piston to time it from?

Are you using an adjustable Vernier?

Im not sure that you will gain much extra with the bigger valves running the standard cam as i think ideally you need to be looking at a more radical cam for extra power from the 2.4.

[Jessopia74]

32 minutes ago, 611 said:

I think it depends on the cam maker as ENEM run hydraulic on most of their cams, even the more radical ones.

Was the timing about which piston to time it from?

Are you using an adjustable Vernier?

Im not sure that you will gain much extra with the bigger valves running the standard cam as i think ideally you need to be looking at a more radical cam for extra power from the 2.4.

Your right, the profile on the ramp is different for hydraulic followers, a cam designed to run with solid followers will not be great on hydraulic and vice versa as it messes with the cams timing 

[2400man]

10 hours ago, Jessopia74 said:

Woukd be better with GTE cam mate, or 2.0s

Oh OK.  I was advised ages back that not much difference between GTE cam and Frontera.  Just gotta find one now 😁

[Jessopia74]

2 hours ago, 2400man said:

Oh OK.  I was advised ages back that not much difference between GTE cam and Frontera.  Just gotta find one now 😁

Yeah if you don’t have another cam, there is not much in it at all. The 2.4 cam is not bad, good duration and lift, but crap timing position. It would be even better if you can use an adjustable vernier with it to adjust timing, that is what your trying to shift tbh with the std cam sprocket and different cam anyway. 
you want to make best use of the revs with your gear ratios in the car that differs a lot from the frontera requirements.

Added pic of cam timings and a good read at GT forms on cams and specifically the i200 ‘555’ is interesting https://www.opelgt.com/threads/cams-cams-and-cams.92785/

Hope that starts you heading in the right direction to extract that potential out if the 2.4 lump 👍

 

 

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