611 Posted August 18, 2022 Share Posted August 18, 2022 10 hours ago, 2400man said: Oh OK. I was advised ages back that not much difference between GTE cam and Frontera. Just gotta find one now 😁 As Jess say, the standard 2.4 (even with bigger valves) in its basic form wont give you that much extra over the 2.0L, better torque and a bit more power but to really get some power you will need to do some work on that setup. Adjustable vernier with it all dialled in with a good cam that is producing some decent lift on those nice big valves of yours. As Jess said there is loads of reading on the GT forum site about the 2.4 and all its potential and you will see all the German 2.4's will have had a fair bit of work done to them. Its probably not what you want to hear as all those bits are going to add a few more pounds to your build. But well worth it in the end and best to get it right as otherwise you will be a bit disappointed after all that time you are putting into the inlet modifications. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2400man Posted August 18, 2022 Author Share Posted August 18, 2022 21 hours ago, 611 said: I think it depends on the cam maker as ENEM run hydraulic on most of their cams, even the more radical ones. Was the timing about which piston to time it from? Are you using an adjustable Vernier? Im not sure that you will gain much extra with the bigger valves running the standard cam as i think ideally you need to be looking at a more radical cam for extra power from the 2.4. The timing advice was about stuff like how to accurately find TDC using a dial gauge and not to rely on the factory timing marks. All very useful to know. I'm not using a vernier but of course will certainly need to get one if I'm gonna be adjusting the timing. I'm wondering where best to source one these days. From the cam manufacturers? Kent, Piper etc? I'm a bit out of touch about stuff like that, about 20 years out of touch! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cam.in.head Posted August 18, 2022 Share Posted August 18, 2022 i would have thought the tdc mark on the flywheel would have been 100% accurate as its not as if you can put the fywheel on in the wrong place.but ive never dialed one up to check it myself ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
611 Posted August 18, 2022 Share Posted August 18, 2022 8 minutes ago, 2400man said: The timing advice was about stuff like how to accurately find TDC using a dial gauge and not to rely on the factory timing marks. All very useful to know. I'm not using a vernier but of course will certainly need to get one if I'm gonna be adjusting the timing. I'm wondering where best to source one these days. From the cam manufacturers? Kent, Piper etc? I'm a bit out of touch about stuff like that, about 20 years out of touch! Yep, its a tricky one. Dont use the standard marks if using a aftermarket cam and adjustable sprocket. This is what my cam supplier said. (If you want to be 100% certain you can adjust 0-clearenc on the cyl 1 inlet valve, put a dial gauge – or use a Vernier – so that you can measure the inlet valve opening at TDC when the engine is in the overlap position.) They set all theirs up on the valve clearance. The overlap was the confusing but, but i seemed to have worked it out at the time! I think mine is a Kent Vernier as i did run a kent cam on the twin carb setup but was never that happy with it so swapped the cam but kept the Vernier. I think piper might do one for the CIH. worth a check. Just now, cam.in.head said: i would have thought the tdc mark on the flywheel would have been 100% accurate as its not as if you can put the fywheel on in the wrong place.but ive never dialed one up to check it myself ! That will be fine for the initial timing but the standard timing marks just make sure everything is in the right place, but the TDC setup makes sure you have the engine spot on so you can then adjust the cam. Then your basically timing the cam for full lift to get the most out of it. Usually the cam supplier will give you the details of at what position you need the cam at with the engine in the right place. ENEM If you want to be 100% certain you can adjust 0-clearenc on the cyl 1 inlet valve, put a dial gauge – or use a Vernier – so that you can measure the inlet valve opening at TDC when the engine is in the overlap position. https://www.theopelproject.com/cam-timing-info/ 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2400man Posted August 18, 2022 Author Share Posted August 18, 2022 8 hours ago, Jessopia74 said: Yeah if you don’t have another cam, there is not much in it at all. The 2.4 cam is not bad, good duration and lift, but crap timing position. It would be even better if you can use an adjustable vernier with it to adjust timing, that is what your trying to shift tbh with the std cam sprocket and different cam anyway. you want to make best use of the revs with your gear ratios in the car that differs a lot from the frontera requirements. Added pic of cam timings and a good read at GT forms on cams and specifically the i200 ‘555’ is interesting https://www.opelgt.com/threads/cams-cams-and-cams.92785/ Hope that starts you heading in the right direction to extract that potential out if the 2.4 lump 👍 Project images are available to Club Members Only, Click to become an OMOC Member. This info is great thanks Jess. I'm gonna have a fair bit of reading up to do I can tell. Interestingly, it looks from the table that the 24NE cam is identical to the 19E 🤔. Was the same 24NE cam used in both the Frontera and the Omega btw? I know they have different engine maps because different Bosch part numbers for the ecu's. What I'm wondering now is should I stick with the standard cam and timing to start with and and set the engine up using that for a base line, before moving on to experimenting with cams/ timing etc or just leap straight into the modifications. The skimmed head and refaced block will have a minor effect in timing anyway I expect so it won't be completely standard to start with. I certainly don't relish the idea of having to remove the head any time soon to do any mods but of course that isn't necessary to change cams and stuff. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickfrad Posted August 18, 2022 Share Posted August 18, 2022 Piper still do kits not sure on kent cams though. https://www.pipercams.co.uk/product/vauxhall-1-6-1-9-2-0-c-i-h-vernier-pulley 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
611 Posted August 18, 2022 Share Posted August 18, 2022 1 hour ago, 2400man said: This info is great thanks Jess. I'm gonna have a fair bit of reading up to do I can tell. Interestingly, it looks from the table that the 24NE cam is identical to the 19E 🤔. Was the same 24NE cam used in both the Frontera and the Omega btw? I know they have different engine maps because different Bosch part numbers for the ecu's. What I'm wondering now is should I stick with the standard cam and timing to start with and and set the engine up using that for a base line, before moving on to experimenting with cams/ timing etc or just leap straight into the modifications. The skimmed head and refaced block will have a minor effect in timing anyway I expect so it won't be completely standard to start with. I certainly don't relish the idea of having to remove the head any time soon to do any mods but of course that isn't necessary to change cams and stuff. I got mine up and running with the old cam as i wanted to make sure it all fired up ok and you don't want to run a new cam if you have any issues getting it fired up as ideally you want to run the cam in properly. A little bit of pain changing it is better than lots of pain if you kill the nice new cam. Im glad i did mine that way as i had lots of issues with the original Alpha injection. Once i had it running i swapped the cam for the enem one and then took it to run the cam in and have it mapped. Which is when i swapped to the Omex. You can do the cam wheel as well you just have to be super careful removing the cam wheel bracket as you dont want to drop one of the bolts down the front cover as then it will be engine apart! Andy 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2400man Posted August 18, 2022 Author Share Posted August 18, 2022 58 minutes ago, Mickfrad said: Piper still do kits not sure on kent cams though. https://www.pipercams.co.uk/product/vauxhall-1-6-1-9-2-0-c-i-h-vernier-pulley Cheers Mick. Just been checking out the Piper kit. Also found Kent still do the pulley too 'with advance and retard scale'. Not found any images yet of the Kent but from description sounds like only the top pulley, whereas the Piper kit is top and bottom pulleys and duplex chain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
611 Posted August 18, 2022 Share Posted August 18, 2022 26 minutes ago, 2400man said: Cheers Mick. Just been checking out the Piper kit. Also found Kent still do the pulley too 'with advance and retard scale'. Not found any images yet of the Kent but from description sounds like only the top pulley, whereas the Piper kit is top and bottom pulleys and duplex chain. If you were going to change the timing chain it would probably worth getting the piper kit at that price. How much was just the kent one? Im sure mine is kent but quite old and in those days they just provided the plastic dial for the scale. Project images are available to Club Members Only, Click to become an OMOC Member. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cam.in.head Posted August 18, 2022 Share Posted August 18, 2022 how do you change the cam without taking the head off ?? are we talking special head bolts or just removing them one at a time to pass a lobe ? ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickfrad Posted August 19, 2022 Share Posted August 19, 2022 (edited) Not sure if this would be any good. Maybe printed and stuck onto plastic or onto a cd as it has a function to print cd size. https://www.blocklayer.com/degree-wheel Edited August 19, 2022 by Mickfrad 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H-400 Posted August 19, 2022 Share Posted August 19, 2022 10 hours ago, cam.in.head said: how do you change the cam without taking the head off ?? Normally you'v got to take the head off, but I fitted a link in my chain so I can open the chain and take the sprocket out so the cam can be removed without taking the head off. Thought I had to remove one head bolt also, not sure, long ago. Project images are available to Club Members Only, Click to become an OMOC Member. Those links are from Mercedes but our friend Thomas (Edelschmiede) sells them also. You can fit those links without opening the engine, carefully with a grinder and some rags. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jessopia74 Posted August 19, 2022 Share Posted August 19, 2022 6 hours ago, Mickfrad said: Not sure if this would be any good. Maybe printed and stuck onto plastic or onto a cd as it has a function to print cd size. https://www.blocklayer.com/degree-wheel That pretty good find Mate. it’s pretty much the same as what Kent used to give with their kits 👍 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2400man Posted August 20, 2022 Author Share Posted August 20, 2022 On 19/08/2022 at 00:07, 611 said: If you were going to change the timing chain it would probably worth getting the piper kit at that price. How much was just the kent one? Im sure mine is kent but quite old and in those days they just provided the plastic dial for the scale. Project images are available to Club Members Only, Click to become an OMOC Member. The Kent one is £182 on Larkspeed here. Not sure if that's ex or inc VAT. PIper list their kit with an ex VAT price which takes it over £200 with the VAT. I prefer the design of yours as more locking bolts for the pulley. On 19/08/2022 at 06:44, Mickfrad said: Not sure if this would be any good. Maybe printed and stuck onto plastic or onto a cd as it has a function to print cd size. https://www.blocklayer.com/degree-wheel Like the look of that Mick... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
611 Posted August 20, 2022 Share Posted August 20, 2022 Enem have them and they look very similar to the old Kent ones but they are just as expensive. 2519 SEK Project images are available to Club Members Only, Click to become an OMOC Member. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2400man Posted August 23, 2022 Author Share Posted August 23, 2022 On 10/08/2022 at 20:44, GTEPETE said: ......Thankfully by a stroke of luck they were working on an Alfa twin cam head and it turned out the bronze guides for this were perfect to use in the Frontera head .... Interesting info David, do you know which model Alfa, may be part number? Did they re use your valves, caps and collets? OMEX info https://www.facebook.com/pg/omextechnology/posts/?ref=page_internal&mt_nav=0 Check out the 640 BHP 2.0 Corsa!!! https://www.facebook.com/pg/omextechnology/posts/?ref=page_internal&mt_nav=0 I've checked with the machine shop Pete but they were rather vague about the Alfa guides tbh. Basically they said 'They were indeed Alfa valve guides, however, they were not a direct replacement and needed modifying to fit, so basically a custom job done specifically for your cylinder head. We quite often use guides from different engines/manufacturers to accomplish the end goal that is desired, it basically comes down to what we can source that meets the closest criteria and we make the rest happen in house.' I then asked if the guides had the correct bore (9mm approx) and the response was 'Yes, I believe so, if the stem size matches, we can machine the outside and shorten them to suit the application.' Sorry I couldn't get anything more specific. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jessopia74 Posted August 24, 2022 Share Posted August 24, 2022 Once the guides are pressed in, they would need to be reemed anyway. You could if you have a lathe ofc, pretty much use anything that would be longer or narrower than needed. I would suspect your talking a 16v DOHC head guide as they would be usually smaller valve stems. https://www.serdi.co.uk/engine-components/valve-guides/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2400man Posted August 27, 2022 Author Share Posted August 27, 2022 On 24/08/2022 at 16:19, Jessopia74 said: Once the guides are pressed in, they would need to be reemed anyway. You could if you have a lathe ofc, pretty much use anything that would be longer or narrower than needed. I would suspect your talking a 16v DOHC head guide as they would be usually smaller valve stems. https://www.serdi.co.uk/engine-components/valve-guides/ Interesting point about the reaming Jess. The head ended up being at the machine shop for 4 months last year from Easter to September. The original plan was to fit inserts and ream them out to take the valves but they said they spent ages trying to source the right size reamer both in Europe and then the US. Then an Alfa head came in for some work and it occurred to them that the Alfa guides might be suitable for the Frontera head with some modification, which they ended up fitting. Now I’m wondering how they would have reamed out the guides after pressing in if they couldn’t source the reamer or would they use a different type maybe....🤔 Btw we have a lathe but it needs a bit of tlc 😁 …..another project! Project images are available to Club Members Only, Click to become an OMOC Member. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jessopia74 Posted August 29, 2022 Share Posted August 29, 2022 It’s maybe something I can turn down on my lathe when I get back to doing stuff. Want to teach my lad a few things as they are not a precision fit part as such, would be a good start I guess. Better start looking at valve options too, perhaps ppl might want to go to a wasted stem valve from a cheap source (e.g. GM,Ford v8 etc from one of the larger USA retailers that ship to UK). But you are right, it seems odd they struggled to find a reaming tool, but then reamed the Alpha ones🤔 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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