Norph Posted May 27, 2009 Share Posted May 27, 2009 Hi everybody, I realise the screen name is new but I've actually been around quite a while on the OMOC boards. The project had laid dormant for a few years, and hence my old screen name but I'm glad to say it is now back in full swing! I have a bit of a quandry though: I'm tuning my head as we speak (1.9s CiH for the record) and appear to have mis-placed five of my collets. Now I would like to replace all these but I'm stumped as to where I may find any new ones. So first off, do I need new ones? (if so does anyone have any suggestions as to where I could source them)? Or, are old ones perfectly adequate? and in which case does anyone have any I can procure for some beer tokens! Secondly, as I said I'm tuning the head and have been in contact with Risse Motorsport in Germany about new spring retainers. I can get them but they're made of Aluminium. Has anyone else had any experience with these or would you recommend an alternative? I've got quite a wild cam so I'm drawn to the sprung-weight saving that Aluminium would bring, but I've heard that Al isn't as reliable as steel etc... Again, any advice? If anyone can help I'd be grateful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lamchop77 Posted June 1, 2009 Share Posted June 1, 2009 Hi everybody, I realise the screen name is new but I've actually been around quite a while on the OMOC boards. The project had laid dormant for a few years, and hence my old screen name but I'm glad to say it is now back in full swing! I have a bit of a quandry though: I'm tuning my head as we speak (1.9s CiH for the record) and appear to have mis-placed five of my collets. Now I would like to replace all these but I'm stumped as to where I may find any new ones. So first off, do I need new ones? (if so does anyone have any suggestions as to where I could source them)? Or, are old ones perfectly adequate? and in which case does anyone have any I can procure for some beer tokens! Secondly, as I said I'm tuning the head and have been in contact with Risse Motorsport in Germany about new spring retainers. I can get them but they're made of Aluminium. Has anyone else had any experience with these or would you recommend an alternative? I've got quite a wild cam so I'm drawn to the sprung-weight saving that Aluminium would bring, but I've heard that Al isn't as reliable as steel etc... Again, any advice? If anyone can help I'd be grateful. Norph Firstly it's good to hear from someone who still wants to tune the CIH!!!! Now what wild cam are you running? What is the rest of the motor like (forged pistons ,etc)? Personally i wouldn't use ally retainers but thats just me, i would go for titanium. Why are you going to Risse, yes they are good but for cam and valvetrain Kent are good but try Cat cams as they have what your after as well. As for the collets using the old ones should be fine, i've had no problems up to now. Getting hold of them is a different kettle of fish, i haven't seen them anywhere new and all the ones i have are in sets. If you are after saving weight on the valve train there are some ally followers available from Sweden i think which save quite a bit. Why are you using the 1.9 head? The 2.0 is slightly better as std but the 2.2 or 2.4 heads have a big improvement with flow rates. HTH Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norph Posted June 1, 2009 Author Share Posted June 1, 2009 Hi Chris, The engine is still in its infancy at the moment. I have a rebuilt block which I intend to use as an interim measure until I can get my original shortblock bored, and rebuilt using forged pistons etc. As it stands currently, the head is ported/port-matched and polished. I have a kent cam adjustable vernier, Weber 32/36 DGAV (which will get replaced with twin 40 DCOEs given time!), Magnecor 8mm electrosport HTs, splitfires (for their dubious worth) and a full Piper cam kit (springs, rotocaps, followers and 285 "ultimate road" cam). As far as my collets are concerned I'm glad to hear I can re-use them. I just hope they've fallen somewhere obscure in the garage! As far as Risse are concerned it's for no other reason than I'm struggling to find sources which can direct me to anywhere else! Risse were suggested to me by a guy at Schrick but really I'm just trying to find almost anything at the moment, but I wasn't prepared to just buy their stuff without finding more leads first! The reason I'm going with the head is probably going to sound a little eccentric quite honestly... I know the "larger" head offer better flow rates, but I'm drawn to tune this engine as far as it can go. For one thing I'd guess that not many people go this route and in an extremely perverse way, for me, it retains some of the cars originality. (Am I making any sense??!!) I'd like to go for roller rockers if they're worth it, as my OE rocker arms are knackered (studs worn flat), but again if there's a more practicle solution I'm all ears... Any thoughts? Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lamchop77 Posted June 1, 2009 Share Posted June 1, 2009 Hi Chris, The engine is still in its infancy at the moment. I have a rebuilt block which I intend to use as an interim measure until I can get my original shortblock bored, and rebuilt using forged pistons etc. As it stands currently, the head is ported/port-matched and polished. I have a kent cam adjustable vernier, Weber 32/36 DGAV (which will get replaced with twin 40 DCOEs given time!), Magnecor 8mm electrosport HTs, splitfires (for their dubious worth) and a full Piper cam kit (springs, rotocaps, followers and 285 "ultimate road" cam). As far as my collets are concerned I'm glad to hear I can re-use them. I just hope they've fallen somewhere obscure in the garage! As far as Risse are concerned it's for no other reason than I'm struggling to find sources which can direct me to anywhere else! Risse were suggested to me by a guy at Schrick but really I'm just trying to find almost anything at the moment, but I wasn't prepared to just buy their stuff without finding more leads first! The reason I'm going with the head is probably going to sound a little eccentric quite honestly... I know the "larger" head offer better flow rates, but I'm drawn to tune this engine as far as it can go. For one thing I'd guess that not many people go this route and in an extremely perverse way, for me, it retains some of the cars originality. (Am I making any sense??!!) I'd like to go for roller rockers if they're worth it, as my OE rocker arms are knackered (studs worn flat), but again if there's a more practicle solution I'm all ears... Any thoughts? Thanks Right now we know what you've got here goes. Your at the point that i was at 6 years ago. Used to run a 2.0 in my class 3 grasser. Engine spec was std bottom end, 2.0 head with mild porting, 45mm inlets, std exhaust valves, 234 kent cam, vernier timing gear, running on 40's with a std cast manifold and 21/4 system. this put out on the rollers 157bhp. It sounds like this is the sort of motor your heading for. With better pistons you'll end up with a bit more power/torque. Recommend you look into a different clutch setup as the 2.0 one starts to give up at this sort of power level. Places to avoid - SBD charged me wayyyyy over the odds for modding a flywheel and providing a rally clutch ( £645 to be precise!!). Regal - DBilas cam dealer.. wouldn't even ring me back with a quote. They just aren't interested in the CIH stuff. ( Just my opinion anyway!!) Cat cams are good to deal with as a guy there used to race mantas. I do have a few other contacts to get stuff made. Wossner pistons are pretty good but i might be able to sort forged pistons from somewhere else. As a note i wouldn't fit 40's go to 45's the 40's i had were absolutely maxed out and were slightly restricting the engine. You could just run a 38DGAS (3.0 Capri carb good to 180 bhp and better fuel economy) Roller rockers are available from Cat cams BUT the geometry is not the best and there have been some problems allegedly (info from other forums). A prototype set are being tested at the moment in Sweden but they are likely to be 600-700 euros so could be out of your budget. The reason i mentioned the 2.0 head apart from the better flow rate is they have the 2 M8 bolts at the front which help stop oil leaks, head gasket failure. Splitfires - forget em make no difference in power. As for being eccentric - i approve!!!!!!!!!! Just so you know at the moment im building a "long stroke" 2.3 motor - 2.2 crank, 2.4 rods, custom 97mm forged pistons, Blydenstein race head, 45's, steel flywheel etc and also a 2.5 with forged wossner pistons, forged rods, 48's full race 2.2 head etc. Spent a lot of time looking for stuff so i know how your feeling. HTH Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norph Posted June 2, 2009 Author Share Posted June 2, 2009 Hi Chris, You've hit the nail on the head concerning output. I've always had the ball park figure of 150 for the mill's output, it's nice to hear that I shouldn't be too far off! That said I was reading on the opel tuners source about a chap with a CiH that was allegedly kicking out close to 197 IIRC, so I'd be curious to see how much further I could go before reliability becomes a factor. I was intrigued by your comments on your original inlet/outlet manifold setup too. I was under the impression that as ports 2 and 3 are siamese that junking it for a 4-2-1 would be a de facto mod? Don't get me wrong, if it's good as it is, it'll stay until the bigger carb/carbs are fitted! Judging by the sounds of what you're doing I assume you compete with these then? What do you expect to get from your 2.5 when it's done? Cheers, Andrew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lamchop77 Posted June 3, 2009 Share Posted June 3, 2009 Norph Ports 2 and 3 aren't exactly siamesed they just share the same exit, but as the firing order is as it is then the gases willhave already gone. Dave walker did a test cast versus tubular manifold and gained roughly 1/2 bhp. All you need to do is just clean the casting marks up. i built a 2.2 motor, std pistons, kent 244, 48's, Blydenstein race head and ran the cast manifold. Engine produced between 175-180 bhp. The 2.3 i'm buolding should hopefully nudge over the 200 bhp mark, the 2.5 IF i get everything spot on could theoretically (According to Cat Cams!!) hit the 260 mark with their cams and full management system. I'd be happy at the 230 ish mark. Reliability is down to the quality of the bits you stick into the motor. If you run std pistons and expect them to last in a motor turning at 7000-7200 then your fooling yourself, the rings are too big and made of the wrong material. If you want 150 bhp follow what i did, it was not very expensive to do. i wouid run a 38DGAS if i was you and see how far that takes you. Spend your money on lightening and balancing the bottom end, get a steel flywheel if you want it to rev hard, decent pistons (stds cost about the same as forged nowadays) and get the head ported. Good luck HTH Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norph Posted June 3, 2009 Author Share Posted June 3, 2009 Chris, I had heard before that the exhaust manifold it was meant to flow well but I didn't realise that any gains were so marginal! Sure enough I'll just tidy up the casting and carry on using it in that case. I'll look in to a 38DGAS too. You mentioned before you recommended I should stay away from Al retainers. Could I ask why that is? I've read that certain tuners don't like them and of course you reinforce that notion, but, out of curiosity, why? No amount of googling has given me an answer and I'd just like to know. I don't plan on competing with this engine but perhaps the odd track day and enthusiastic weekend driving will be on the cards. Whilst I can't say money is no object (who can these days) if there is a tangible benefit for having Ti retainers then that's what I'd go for, as it were, even if it means looking for a new supplier! Thanks, Andrew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lamchop77 Posted June 3, 2009 Share Posted June 3, 2009 Andrew I work at Bae systems and am a machinist by trade. Work with ally all the time and see the effects of high wear on aircraft components, kit and how steel works into ally. Anything we build with ally that needs extra strength ie threads , have helicoil inserts (stainless steel) put in. anything you make out of ally has to be thicker, thats something you can't really do on a retainer plus you would have the steel collets digging into the ally as well. If those start fretting at all the valve could let go. For me its just a personal thing, i'd rather carry a few more grams and spend money on the (hopefully coming soon) roller rockers. By all means use them, you just won't see them on an engine of mine. I used steel retainers on the 2.2 (180 bhp) motor of mine and that revved to 7000-7200 easily. The weak spot is the rocker arm, not that i have had a problem ....yet, although someone on this forum did have a rocker arm break not too long ago. I will address this by having them shot peened and eventually get the roller rockers. HTH Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norph Posted June 4, 2009 Author Share Posted June 4, 2009 Hi Chris, Your explanation is justification enough for me. I'm not an engineer but I do know a bit about materials, and what you say makes perfect sense. I agree that there's very little point in using parts which has a natural propensity to fail given time; I believe that purchasing good quality first time is a far better investment than something which would have to be replaced, so I guess I'll just have to look for someone who can do them in Ti or steel. Speaking of which, who would you recommend? I've so far ruled out Piper, Kent, Cat, Schrick and Risse as they either do them in Al or not at all. I do apologise for the Spanish inquisition but I've come to realise that buying "common" parts for the manta is one thing whilst sourcing performance parts is something else entirely! And unfortunately my knowledge of companies/tuning houses sympathetic to the plight of a CiH owner is limited to say the least. Thanks, Andrew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lamchop77 Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 Hi Chris, Your explanation is justification enough for me. I'm not an engineer but I do know a bit about materials, and what you say makes perfect sense. I agree that there's very little point in using parts which has a natural propensity to fail given time; I believe that purchasing good quality first time is a far better investment than something which would have to be replaced, so I guess I'll just have to look for someone who can do them in Ti or steel. Speaking of which, who would you recommend? I've so far ruled out Piper, Kent, Cat, Schrick and Risse as they either do them in Al or not at all. I do apologise for the Spanish inquisition but I've come to realise that buying "common" parts for the manta is one thing whilst sourcing performance parts is something else entirely! And unfortunately my knowledge of companies/tuning houses sympathetic to the plight of a CiH owner is limited to say the least. Thanks, Andrew Andrew Cat cams might/should have them but all i've done is use the std cih ones. Have you actually spoken to Catcams? As for places that tune the CIH there are virtually none. Best sources are Opel gt forum, RROC and opeltuners2.proboards.com. I have got my self a number of sources for getting stuff made/supplied so could maybe help you out with certain stuff. HTH Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norph Posted June 7, 2009 Author Share Posted June 7, 2009 Hi Chris, Been trawling around for parts this weekend and it's going reasonably well. Found a supplier for new OE rocker arms! Coincidentally I ended up talking to a guy at the UK distributor for Cat cams and he confirmed that they don't do retainers in anything other than Aluminium/Magnesium. He said, in his opinion they were very good and he'd never heard of any pulling through etc. That said, they are designed to only fit Cat's springs which are double rather than my piper singles. Methinks I'll be sticking with OE Items for the time being... Andrew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lamchop77 Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 Hi Chris, Been trawling around for parts this weekend and it's going reasonably well. Found a supplier for new OE rocker arms! Coincidentally I ended up talking to a guy at the UK distributor for Cat cams and he confirmed that they don't do retainers in anything other than Aluminium/Magnesium. He said, in his opinion they were very good and he'd never heard of any pulling through etc. That said, they are designed to only fit Cat's springs which are double rather than my piper singles. Methinks I'll be sticking with OE Items for the time being... Andrew Andrew Who is the supplier of new rocker arms? Could do with a set of new ones for the new motor. Did you get a price for them? Cheers Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norph Posted June 8, 2009 Author Share Posted June 8, 2009 Hi Chris, http://www.karengine.co.uk When I said OE before, I think it is more accurate to say they are 3rd party OE engineering firm. Not new-old GM parts. (But then, who has that stuff these days!!) They quoted me £5.40 ea for the rocker arms (I think that did include VAT but don't hold me to it). The range of engine parts they offer are great... Roughly speaking they can offer: Valves Valve oil seals Head bolts Rocker arms valve guides oil pump "kits" plus a variety of other things Needless to say I have a rather large shopping list at the moment... They have an online catalogue; check them out! Cheers, Andrew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exclusive Opel Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 They probably get their parts from UltraParts which is opposite them. I was only in there the other day to pick up a set of core plugs for a fiver as it's local to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norph Posted June 8, 2009 Author Share Posted June 8, 2009 They probably get their parts from UltraParts which is opposite them. I was only in there the other day to pick up a set of core plugs for a fiver as it's local to me. I was talking to ultraparts as well, and they informed me that it was the other way round. Ultraparts represent KAR, but either way you can get the parts from them. As you are well aware! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lamchop77 Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 I was talking to ultraparts as well, and they informed me that it was the other way round. Ultraparts represent KAR, but either way you can get the parts from them. As you are well aware! Out of intrest what is the code number for the CIH core plug set. Every time my autofactor has ordered a set from ultra its wrong. The one that comes is for the later 2.0. Cheers Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norph Posted June 9, 2009 Author Share Posted June 9, 2009 Hi Chris, UCPS35 is stated as being for the 1.9 CiH. UCPS37 is for the 2.0 as I understand it. Cheers, Andrew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lamchop77 Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 Cheers for that Andrew Got in touch with them today but i need to speak to the owner Graham about some of the bits. Did notice that all the stuff they list for pistons is std bore size, no oversize stuff. Not come across them before but did know about Ultra, so its a good contact to have so thanks for that. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norph Posted June 9, 2009 Author Share Posted June 9, 2009 Hi Chris, Glad to be of help! I assure you I will be tapping you up for items once I've made an itinery of what i need! Methinks I may come calling about Titanium retainers afterall! Andrew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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