Carlton 2.2 Engine Infor Required....

[ascona400r]

Hello.... was looking at an old Opel with a 2.2 Carlton engine and box installed with a twin choke weber.... she is in around 140bhp at flywheel.

Are they much of a setup, and whats the story with the gearboxes as in are they hard to get or fetching big money if required. What other engines do the 2.2 gearboxes fit ???

Or if upgrading to twin 45's, what inlet manifolds are required ???

Any help or info would be appreciated.

[lamchop77]

Hello.... was looking at an old Opel with a 2.2 Carlton engine and box installed with a twin choke weber.... she is in around 140bhp at flywheel.

Are they much of a setup, and whats the story with the gearboxes as in are they hard to get or fetching big money if required. What other engines do the 2.2 gearboxes fit ???

Or if upgrading to twin 45's, what inlet manifolds are required ???

Any help or info would be appreciated.

The gearboxes are std 240 getrag fitted to the manta. The clutch is bigger than std but still not much good if putting lots of power through them. 2.2 motors are lots better than the std 2.0, they have bags more torque than the 2.0. Heads are different so you need special inlets for them, they aren't cheap, think mine were about £216 for the pair( they're 2 separate manifolds rather than the single 2.0 type. They are made by mangoletsi and you can get them through Motorscope in North Allerton.

If the motor is 140 then its most likely got a cam in it. Std they were 115 bhp.

Downside is pistons are can be quite hard to get hold of and are expensive to say the least. Last quote i got £127+vat.

HTH

Chris

[ascona400r]

The gearboxes are std 240 getrag fitted to the manta. The clutch is bigger than std but still not much good if putting lots of power through them. 2.2 motors are lots better than the std 2.0, they have bags more torque than the 2.0. Heads are different so you need special inlets for them, they aren't cheap, think mine were about £216 for the pair( they're 2 separate manifolds rather than the single 2.0 type. They are made by mangoletsi and you can get them through Motorscope in North Allerton.

If the motor is 140 then its most likely got a cam in it. Std they were 115 bhp.

Downside is pistons are can be quite hard to get hold of and are expensive to say the least. Last quote i got £127+vat.

HTH

Chris

Thanks Chris, that helps alot sir.... is there much more to be gained by adding 45 webers rather than the twin choke to a 2.2 ??? Plus where would i get a set of inlet manifolds for her ???

Chris, what sort of money would you consider a good going 2.2 engine like this one including the gearbox be worth if one was to out and buy one. It was recently rebuilt not so long ago, though not sure if it has a cam or not. Want to make sure the car is worth buying, i intend putting the engine into a Manta but don't want to pay too much.

Cheers Brian

[lamchop77]

Thanks Chris, that helps alot sir.... is there much more to be gained by adding 45 webers rather than the twin choke to a 2.2 ??? Plus where would i get a set of inlet manifolds for her ???

Chris, what sort of money would you consider a good going 2.2 engine like this one including the gearbox be worth if one was to out and buy one. It was recently rebuilt not so long ago, though not sure if it has a cam or not. Want to make sure the car is worth buying, i intend putting the engine into a Manta but don't want to pay too much.

Cheers Brian

I've had a 2.2 for Autogass racing. That was built up with std bottom end with lightening and balance done, ported head (2.0 one though), 244 kent cam on 48's with other odds n sods done. That was putting out nearly 180bhp and was massively torquey. Adding 45's will add power but is only really beneficial with a cam fitted.

The 2.2 motors are not that common, they do come up from time to time. I paid 100 quid for one that was pretty much dead, the crank,rods and pistons are different to the 2.0 so giving it a longer stroke. I was told that i had bought up the last 3 sets of 2.2 rings in europe, that was early last year and they had to come from belgium. Its actually getting cheaper to have custom made stuff done for these motors. Having said that if the motor is up n running and you can hear it its worth as much as you want to pay. As for the inlet manifolds i put in the previous reply that Motorscope can get them from mangoletsi. They are not cheap. You could mod a 2.0 one to fit but some flow bench testing was done and due to different entry angles on the ports, i think it was something like a 18% drop in flow into the head occured. If you calculated what the cost you in power(£ per bhp) compared to the extra to buy the manifolds it became a no brainer to stump up the extre 100 quid as there was no way you would get that bhp back some other way in the engine.

Out of interest what sort of price are they looking at?

HTH

Chris

[ascona400r]

pm sent

[vauxsenb]

Just a few things to throw into the mix here,

As prev said pistons are hard to find and expensive, I got the last 4 in the country last year and they were £112 each (trade) then broke a ring building it up , that cost another £35 for an oil scraper ring from Germany , none in the UK !!!

Again as said before, the exhaust ports are lower than the inlets on the 2.2 head so manifolds needs to be type specific, so I went bike carbs (R1's are cheap) and then add a Bogg Bros inlet manifold (only around £170) , coupled with a Janspeed 4-branch, Kent cam, vernier pulley, solid lifters, lightened and balanced this proved a good useable motor for the road and even track days.

Pricewise I bought a 2.4 recently for £230, I thought that was a bargain at the time if that helps.

All the best

Edited November 15, 2010 by vauxsenb

[Cassius]

Rings for 2.0 pistons can be used aswell

[cam.in.head]

Rings for 2.0 pistons can be used aswell

thats what i was hoping. last box of piston rings i had simply said on them `for gm engines 95.00mm bore.but not type specific so was thinking 2.0 or 2.2.

[Cassius]

2.4 will prob work aswell! Like you, I haven't seen any engine specific details on the boxes! But I know for sure that 2.0 works

[vauxsenb]

Rings for 2.0 pistons can be used aswell

Not so sure about that, speak first to a knowledgable supplier or engine builder you can trust, I was told there are differances of thicknesses (not the bore) in the rings and 2.0 rings were NOT useable. Shame as I had 2.0 readily available

I can have mine mic'd if you need the measurements to clarily, its still in bits at the engine builders workshop

If it helps 2.4 bits are far more easily sourced, hence why I bought mine as a spare motor to re-build as, and when, I can afford to.

[lamchop77]

Not so sure about that, speak first to a knowledgable supplier or engine builder you can trust, I was told there are differances of thicknesses (not the bore) in the rings and 2.0 rings were NOT useable. Shame as I had 2.0 readily available

I can have mine mic'd if you need the measurements to clarily, its still in bits at the engine builders workshop

If it helps 2.4 bits are far more easily sourced, hence why I bought mine as a spare motor to re-build as, and when, I can afford to.

The rings for the 2.2 are definately not the same as the 2.0 or the 2.4. The 2.2 rings are thinner than the 2.0 due to the reduced height of the piston.

Be aware Vauxsenb the 2.4 pistons are have a tendancy to split on the ring landings, also the bore will almost certainly be worn on the top 10mm of the bore due to the piston rock you get with these engines. Go for Wossner forged pistons or something similar(think Wiseco do a set as well) These are higher quality forged pistons with a 12-1 comp ratio but they have a special coating to help witht the dreaded bore wear. The wear comes from the bad rod ratio so can't be easily or cheaply cured. You do need to do a small mod to the combustion chamber to get them to clear though. Price is about 500 quid for a set with rings and pins, so about the same as a std set!!!

HTH

Chris

[cam.in.head]

Rings for 2.0 pistons can be used aswell

i have both a standard bore 2 litre & a 2.2 in bits on the kitchen table .will do a measure up & report back here with the results. watch this space !

[vauxsenb]

The rings for the 2.2 are definately not the same as the 2.0 or the 2.4. The 2.2 rings are thinner than the 2.0 due to the reduced height of the piston.

Be aware Vauxsenb the 2.4 pistons are have a tendancy to split on the ring landings, also the bore will almost certainly be worn on the top 10mm of the bore due to the piston rock you get with these engines. Go for Wossner forged pistons or something similar(think Wiseco do a set as well) These are higher quality forged pistons with a 12-1 comp ratio but they have a special coating to help witht the dreaded bore wear. The wear comes from the bad rod ratio so can't be easily or cheaply cured. You do need to do a small mod to the combustion chamber to get them to clear though. Price is about 500 quid for a set with rings and pins, so about the same as a std set!!!

HTH

Chris

Thanks Chris,

Already been looking at Wossner piston sets, hadn't thought about Wiseco, thanks for the tip there kiddo

Cheers, Colin.

[lamchop77]

The rings for the 2.2 are definately not the same as the 2.0 or the 2.4. The 2.2 rings are thinner than the 2.0 due to the reduced height of the piston.

Be aware Vauxsenb the 2.4 pistons are have a tendancy to split on the ring landings, also the bore will almost certainly be worn on the top 10mm of the bore due to the piston rock you get with these engines. Go for Wossner forged pistons or something similar(think Wiseco do a set as well) These are higher quality forged pistons with a 12-1 comp ratio but they have a special coating to help witht the dreaded bore wear. The wear comes from the bad rod ratio so can't be easily or cheaply cured. You do need to do a small mod to the combustion chamber to get them to clear though. Price is about 500 quid for a set with rings and pins, so about the same as a std set!!!

HTH

Chris

Right got all the ring specs now for the engines. These are listed as top ring, then middle and then oil control thicknesses

2.0

2mm

2mm

4mm

2.2

1.75mm

1.5mm

3.5mm

2.4

1.5mm

1.5mm

3mm

The only rings that are the same are the 2.2 and 2.4 2nd comp ring. got these from the Mahle website plus i have got all the different engines at home in bits!!

HTH

Chris

[vauxsenb]

Right got all the ring specs now for the engines. These are listed as top ring, then middle and then oil control thicknesses

2.0

2mm

2mm

4mm

2.2

1.75mm

1.5mm

3.5mm

2.4

1.5mm

1.5mm

3mm

The only rings that are the same are the 2.2 and 2.4 2nd comp ring. got these from the Mahle website plus i have got all the different engines at home in bits!!

HTH

Chris

Well done Chris, good to know there are still folks on here that know what they're talkin' about

[Cassius]

Right got all the ring specs now for the engines. These are listed as top ring, then middle and then oil control thicknesses

2.0

2mm

2mm

4mm

2.2

1.75mm

1.5mm

3.5mm

2.4

1.5mm

1.5mm

3mm

The only rings that are the same are the 2.2 and 2.4 2nd comp ring. got these from the Mahle website plus i have got all the different engines at home in bits!!

HTH

Chris

hmm funny... Becouse I know at least 3 people that has used 2.0 rings for 2.2 pistons! :S

[lamchop77]

hmm funny... Becouse I know at least 3 people that has used 2.0 rings for 2.2 pistons! :S

Cassius

What you will probably find is that the piston ring gaps will have been opened up to allow the 2.0 ones to fit. I have 4 2.2 motors broken down to components and all the pistons have worn ring gaps to the point that they are out of tolerance for std rings. I can actually put 2.0 ring on a few of them. The only problem with modding them is that the distance between the rings is reduced and therefore slightly weaker. These pistons can fail and crack this part off when thrashed a bit.

I looked into modding pistons myself but went with forged ones instead. It is an old fashioned mod though that alot of engine builders can do, mine offered to do it.

HTH

Chris

[cam.in.head]

hmm funny... Becouse I know at least 3 people that has used 2.0 rings for 2.2 pistons! :S

finally got round to measuring mine ..definately different.same as size chart listed above. must be as said above.gaps wear & maybee had worn enough to fit 2 litre rings into 2.2 pistons!wow..