akis-driver Posted April 28, 2009 Share Posted April 28, 2009 Hello everyone. Some of you might recognize the car from a previous post so here it goes. And this was the old engine.A 2.0l CIH. And this was the old engine with a bit more go!!!! It went okey for a while but still not fast enought so i had to think of something else.The solution came in this At the moment the engine is properly fitted in the engine bay with custom engine and gearbox mounts.As you can see from the pics the engine was placed as far back as possible without having to cut any parts of the car. The intake manifold and the oil pan are currently being made to fit but that shouldnt be a problem.The engine will produce arround 300bhp which should be ok for a while at least.I hope you guys like the project any comments are welcome.Enjoy the pics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
®evo03 Posted April 29, 2009 Share Posted April 29, 2009 At the moment the engine is properly fitted in the engine bay with custom engine and gearbox mounts. Are you using a Vauxhall / opel GEARBOX? The intake manifold and the oil pan are currently being made to fit but that shouldnt be a problem.The engine will produce arround 300bhp which should be ok The engine will produce arround 300bhp IS THIS IN STANDARD FORM< NO MODIFICATIONS? what family of GM engines is this saab unit from, are the the same as 2.2 ecotec? Great to see something different, another option against a costly c20 LET!! Very nice, please keep us informed! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akis-driver Posted April 29, 2009 Author Share Posted April 29, 2009 Hey brady thanks for comments. The gearbox is the R25 as fitted to the opel omega (the same as the ones used on c20xe when done rwd). The engine produces stock 225hp but with a custom map fitted this can become 300-320hp (the engine has forged crank,rods and pistons as stock). The engine is a pure saab design is just the bellhousing design that happens to match the c20xe and c20let design (same solutions for gearbox can be used as when fitting an xe). The way i fitted the engine the gearbox is around 2-3cm further back (compared to an xe instalation) which means a slight modification to the gearlever is needed. The propshaft im using is a 2l CIH unit with moddified end to fit the gearbox (nothing difficult there either). Hope this makes sence to you guys.Glad you like the project so far Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick-Manta Posted April 29, 2009 Share Posted April 29, 2009 That's a fine looking conversion. So you're saying you can fit this engine quite easily with the manta 1.8 box, just with some customising to the sump and the mounts? Even easier without dropping it further back like you have, although I expect on right hand drive bays we'd have some inlet clearence issues with the brake servo so keeping it forward maybe the best option in that case. You're last CIH engine bays looked very nicely dressed so it'd be nice to see the saab engine all shiny when you've finished with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
®evo03 Posted April 29, 2009 Share Posted April 29, 2009 more photos please, can you take more photos of gearbox, sump, and driveshaft. and the gearlever modification, much appreciated! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akis-driver Posted April 29, 2009 Author Share Posted April 29, 2009 Rick-Manta Yeah on a right hand drive car it would be easier to have it further up front.But i think its better fitted to the back for handling reasons.And i think that because you have to modify the inlet manifold to bring the throttle on the front you can modify the back accordingly.The sump is way off wherever you put the engine so you will need someone that knows how to machine and weld aluminium.I will show you pics with what i mean soon. By all means i think the conversion itself is not that difficult the difficult is to make the ecu to work as stand alone because the option of an aftermarket ecu is just too expensive for me at least (but i manage to have the wirring and ecu modded so i think on mine it will work-thats the plan anyway). Brandy I will put more pics as soon as i get home where i got them... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akis-driver Posted April 29, 2009 Author Share Posted April 29, 2009 Hello everyone.As i promised here are some pics. We start with the gearbox which as mentioned is the R25 The clutch assembly is with parts from both saab and opel.The flywheel is saab as well as the pressure plate and the clutch is a opel heavy duty item (for start a new saab heavy duty will be used in the future. The intake manifold.The injectors will stay the same so is the 3 bar pressure regulator as the program on the ecu is designed to work with those. For anything above 330 new injectors are needed. This is the oil pan.At the moment is being made to fit.Its going to be skimmed after all the welding is done for obvious reasons. This is the distance between the engine and the crossmember.The height was chosen so after the oil pan modification the same amount of oil is still inside the oil pan. And a couple of extra stuff like the original saab oil cooler.With a bit of a clean up it will look great Hope you guys like those.I dont have more pics at the moment as the car is located in Greece and im over here in London to do my Masters at the university.Its no high budget project and all the work has be done in house by myself and a couple of friends.The only outsourcing item was the ecu tuning and the oil pan and intake manifold welding (i can weld steel but aluminium i cant and didnt want to risk it on such important components). Hopefully by end of July the engine is going to be fired and tested on the road!!! After everything works the engine is comming out,the engine bay painted and the engine made to look just a little bit better ;-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
®evo03 Posted April 30, 2009 Share Posted April 30, 2009 Great photos, Great to see that gearbox, I have one aswell, and am planning a engine conversion for the future, either c20let (redtop turbo) or a saab unit, 300bhp will be nice!! (I will be fitting it to a manta, both ascona are basically the same. keep us informed, one area you might want to look at is the gear stick selector bracket, If you use a opel manta 5 speed item, the bracket is shorter, therefore, closer to the front of box, might be easier than moving the hole in the tunnel, have you any probs with clearance on the box, against the tunnel on the car? any other modifications need for this engine to fit? (both to engine components, and (car shell) Thanks for the photos, this is a good club for picking peoples brains, members have good knowledge, and its good to hear other opinions on things? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akis-driver Posted April 30, 2009 Author Share Posted April 30, 2009 Brandy I was thinking about the c20let as well.Its by far the easiest option fitment wise but they are expensive and most of them are 'abused' so a rebuilt is needed which can be costly.Saab engines on the other hand are cheaper,far less abused, stronger but need a lot of work in order to fit. At the moment the engine and gearbox is properly fitted and no clearance problems have come up. To be honest i wanted the gearstick to come further back as i want a straight lever with a quicshift on thats the reason i decided to cut the top of the tunnel.But you are right if you decide to use the shorter bracket no mod on the tunnel is needed (didnt measure it but it looked that way to be honest). Another modification needed is a remote engine filter (a sandwich plate goes where the filter is because even though it fits you cant remove it with the engine still in place as it hits the crossmember) but thats a 40quid mod nothing special there. What i would advise to anyone wanting to try something similar is to find someone to do the wiring and ecu mapping for you first as thats the most important factor and also find someone thats good with machining and welding aluminium. Another mod needed is the exhaust manifold from a saab 900 trbo or a spacer on the stock manifold so that the turbo is facing the correct way otherwise it faces backwards like the throttle. i chose the option of the saab 900 manifold as they are only like 20 quid second hand and are a straight fit.Spacers are more like the 60 quid mark.Ill see if i can find a picture of that. Another thing im not sure yet is how im going to fit the 76mm (3inch) exhaust from turbo to muffler. I currently have a 63mm exhaust and thats a tight fit above the rear axle.I might have to do double pipe configuration...Any ideas??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick-Manta Posted April 30, 2009 Share Posted April 30, 2009 Rick-Manta .....the difficult is to make the ecu to work as stand alone because the option of an aftermarket ecu is just too expensive for me at least (but i manage to have the wirring and ecu modded so i think on mine it will work-thats the plan anyway). Unless you go for carbs which I would as I don't fully understand injection, still very expensive mind just much easier to bolt on and go. Top job mate and I hope you get your masters easy enough too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akis-driver Posted April 30, 2009 Author Share Posted April 30, 2009 Rick -Manta Carbs?Now why didnt i think of that???To be honest i did but i thought it beats the point of using a new engine.If it wasnt turbo it would have been much easier to set up the carbs too.But still you have the problem of the ignition unless you go distributor style...Maybe one of you guys wants to try that!!!! Glad you like the project.The masters is going even better than the car so no probs there... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manta_a Posted May 2, 2009 Share Posted May 2, 2009 Cracking to see this conversion. Looked into it a lot myself. I was concerned about the gearbox however as the r25-r28 is rated to 250-280Nm. The B234 and similar series of engines (2.3's) were renowned for having silly amounts of torque from the factory, about 260Nm if I remember correctly. I think they used to advertise that the 50-80mph sprint was quicker in a 2.3T 9000 than some super cars of the time! The engines are unbeleivably tunable, especialy if your has Trionic 5 software. I looked into using the Borg-warner box and having a custom bell housing made. Be really interested to see how the gearbox handles the power. Hopefully very well! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akis-driver Posted May 2, 2009 Author Share Posted May 2, 2009 Manta_a Im worried about the gearbox too.Im gonna have to wait and see.Actually the engine stock is producing 345Nm but mine is producing 405Nm with the softawe is running.At least the gearbox is cheap enought so replacing wont be a problem.But they seem to handle c20let power fine if not abused so might be ok. My engine is fitted with trionic 5 and the software is being designed for with low down torque in mind and safety(for the engine).The engines are supposed to handle arround 450hp stock.Its going to be running 1.7 bar boost reducing down to 0.7bar at the redline to keep those EGT temperatures down. The trionic uses an APC valve to control the boost according to conditions and this set up is going to be used. About the Borg-warner box i heard before on tunned c20lets but the cost is high.Maybe a Getrag 265 from a BMW might be a better option.When it breaks i will see what happens(it will make a nice BANG i think!!!!)... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manta_a Posted May 2, 2009 Share Posted May 2, 2009 The availability of the boxes certinaly makes it a viable option! Im sure if not driven too hard the gearbox will last. Have you seen the Trionic forums? Very helpful place from what ive noticed, many people seem happy to share maps and help each other out. I've heard of some people purposely mapping to eliminate the low down gearbox killing torque that the engines can produce, which is an option, but not the most fun! The T5 Borg-warner (as found in Saph Cosworths and used on many an American muscle car) isnt cheap at around £500, then a custom bellhousing is around £400, plus a decent clutch and you've blown well over £1000 on just a small part of the transmission. Which is quite annoying as the Saab lumps seem like such value for money!!! Hopefully your r25-28 will be strong! If not it it may be worth looking for an uprated gearset, although Quaife do not list one as yet. Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akis-driver Posted May 2, 2009 Author Share Posted May 2, 2009 Manta_a Thanks for your input on that.Price on the T5 is what put me off to be honest you are correct it will pass the £1000 which is more than the engine itself. I have spoken to the guys on the trionic forum.Ive also got communication with the guys on the saab forum which have been great help. To be honest the low down kick is what i want thats why im sticking with the stock turbo which is good for low down but tends to run out of puff at high rpm. Upgrading the gearset i think is equally expensive so again doesnt make any sence financially but if i find a low cost set then why not. Any ideas on how im going to make the exhaust fit the car (3inches diameter with only one silencer at the back).Its over the rear axle that im worried it wont fit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manta_a Posted May 2, 2009 Share Posted May 2, 2009 I've also thought about the exhaust issue. To get the most out of the engine you really do need the 3 inch diameter. Unfortunately I didnt get into much deep thought, usual ideas such as a side exit (not really my cup of tea) and running the exhaust up into the car (again not my cup of tea) did spring to mind. Generally though I was hoping a good exhaust company would have managed to squeeze it in somehow?? What Turbo does you engine have? From memory I know many came with Garrett T25's, but either a lot of the Saab boys upgrade, or some of the aero models may have came with Mitsi TD04's? I hear the TD04's work well with the larger displacement 2.3 engines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akis-driver Posted May 2, 2009 Author Share Posted May 2, 2009 To be honest i didnt want to take the car to a specialist for the exhaust.I desided that i was going to do everything and ive done exhausts in the past.what im thinking is having a 3inch downpipe thats breaks into two 1.5inch pipes and becomes one 3 inch before it goes into the rear silencer.The side exit exhaust is completely ilegal in Greece so thats not a posibility either.Going through the body is not an option as i dont want to cut into the body just for the exhaust. The turbo that i have is the Td04 which was stock on the aero version (the high powered one 225hp stock).But even the Garrett is good and is also cheap to service. The TD04 is just that little bit bigger and therefore can break the 300bhp mark.The T25 can only go up to 280.Thats the reason why a lot of people change to T28. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akis-driver Posted May 7, 2009 Author Share Posted May 7, 2009 One more think guys in case you can help me out.Is there a hydraulic steering rack i can use as the pump is already on the engine.Fabricating mounts is not an issue but size is. so a compact design is what im after.I thought one from a bmw e30 would be ok but have to check that.Any other ideas would be nice... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manta_a Posted May 7, 2009 Share Posted May 7, 2009 I didnt think about using the PAS pump. I dont like the idea of fiddling with racks, I'm not competant enough to try that! Although I did look at going down the electric power steering route, using a corsa electric steering column, but thats not what your after. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akis-driver Posted May 7, 2009 Author Share Posted May 7, 2009 Manta a No the corsa electric rack conversion ive done it on a friends car.Its good but not what im looking for.To be honest i like the feeling with no power steering but i thought id use one since i have the power steering pump and is not that easy to remove it (is going to be tricky to find a new belt)...Any more input would be nice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akis-driver Posted May 12, 2009 Author Share Posted May 12, 2009 Hello guys.Im trying to find a rubber boot that fits where the clutch fork sticks out of the bellhousing for the R25 gearbox.Do you know where i can find one either new or second hand?Thanks for your help guys Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
endakillian Posted June 12, 2009 Share Posted June 12, 2009 Any updates on this conversion? Like many others i had been watching this very closely! These Saab engines are definately the way forward-XE's and LET's are gettin way too expensive I'm just wondering-is it just the turbos which are different between the Aero version and the CSE? Will the TD04 turbo fit the CSE engine? Also have you any expierience/ideas regarding the fitting of a 2.3 head on 2.0 block? Whats involved? Advantages....disadvantages....? One last question! What do you plan using axle wise? Surely the GTE standard won't handle over 300bhp?? Regarding the exhaust issues i'd say your idea of splitting it into 2 1.5" pipes to get over the axle really is the only option (assuming you can't get a 3" pipe over it) Good idea BTW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuart Posted June 13, 2009 Share Posted June 13, 2009 Nice.........................nice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vauxsenb Posted June 13, 2009 Share Posted June 13, 2009 Regarding the exhaust issues i'd say your idea of splitting it into 2 1.5" pipes to get over the axle really is the only option (assuming you can't get a 3" pipe over it) Good idea BTW I guess you thought of trying an oval pipe to go over the axle in the style of the old Saab 900 turbo tail-pipe, no-one said it had to be perfectly round did they . . . . . take a 3" pipe and batter it oval you should be able to get it down to 2.1/2" or thereabouts and give clearance over the axle. Not too pretty perhaps but effective flow just the same. Cheers, Colin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akis-driver Posted June 13, 2009 Author Share Posted June 13, 2009 Any updates on this conversion? Like many others i had been watching this very closely! These Saab engines are definately the way forward-XE's and LET's are gettin way too expensive Im just about to finish a masters course that im doing at the moment so will be going back to Greece to continue with the conversion.Major updates will come up end of July when if all goes well you are goijng to have a video of the engine working and the car moving and things falling off!!!! I'm just wondering-is it just the turbos which are different between the Aero version and the CSE? Will the TD04 turbo fit the CSE engine? Yes only the turbo that is different (Aero is fitted with a TD04 and the rest with a Garrett T25).The ecu software is also different but you are going to have to send the ecu for a remap anyway in order to remove the immobiliser (doesnt cost a lot even from specialists) Also have you any expierience/ideas regarding the fitting of a 2.3 head on 2.0 block? Whats involved? Advantages....disadvantages....? It should be a simple bolt in job (im not 100% sure on that).The only difference between the 2.0 and the 2.3 is the different stroke. The 2.0 tends to be better revving but to be honest i prefer the extra torque of the 2.3. One last question! What do you plan using axle wise? Surely the GTE standard won't handle over 300bhp?? Axle wise im sticking with the GTE until it breaks (personally i think the torque tube will break way before the axle breaks) and then fit a volvo 240 axle or go extreme and fit a bmw e30 rear axle that i have.Both of those can easily take the torque but i havent decided yet on that. Regarging the exhaust i will try to fit the 3inch and do what vauxsenb said and try to batter it oval. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.