The Ideal 1.9 Build

[Stev0]

Hey guys...

i don't know if you recall i had a lengthy discussion with some of you (611, monzta etc..) about which route to take with my manta's power plant..

the guys in SA are generally not keeping the CIH lumps, swopping them for the OHC setups.. I've been buying up all the old motors dirt cheap and now have:

1x 19S - in my car - healthy, standard except fuelling(weber 38DGAS), strong compression, fuelling and cold startups a bit crap, last rebuild unknown..

1x 19S - in garage - very healthy, standard, came out of a manta which was used daily, recently serviced, new gaskets etc..

1x 16S - in garage - Completely rebuilt less than 1000km ago, new bearings, rings, seals, timing chain etc...

soon to collect:

1x 19S - from friend - 'race spec' with performance camshaft, cylinder head possibly flowed and ported, non-runner

1x 19S - from friend - condition unknown, will get more details when i'm down that way again..

Now... i'm thinking i could have quite a decent setup if i used the crank (after balancing) and solid lifters from the 1.6, bottom end from the daily used 19S and the camshaft from the 'race spec' motor.. not sure what condition the head is in, but i have a contact who can squeeze optimum kw from any cylinder head, so i'll give him one of the std heads to work with.. i have a getrag 240 box on hand which i'm planning to use in the car..

is it worth going bigger on the valves?

I have the sidedraft intakes to suite the 1.9 head, can i get away with 40 webers or do i need bigger?

is it worth the bore to 2L?

what else can i look at to get the most out of the motor reliably?

my aim is around 140hp...

Edited October 11, 2012 by Stev0

[611]

Hey SteveO

Sounds like you have been busy!

I ran a 1.9 taken out to 2.0l, with a 2.0l head that was flowed and had bigger intake valves, twin dellorto carbs 45's and the rest of the engine was standard (apart from lightened flywheel) and that put out about 130/140bhp, I had a 2.5" exhaust which i think was a bit big as it didnt flow quite as well as it could have, so i think a 2" would probably be best.

It was super reliable apart from the carbs did go out of balance if i didnt use it over the winter and in the summer i could have done with a bit more cooling :-) but was great fun to drive and sounded nice :-)

I had 8" clutch and it took the power no problem.

Andy

[monzta]

Hi, yeah i remember the thread

Your idea is solid. The 1,6 crank will ensure good RPM´s without any crank wobble. Get it balanced though as machines in the 70´s werent as good as today. Use the stock 1,9 bottom, a good camshaft and a set of sidedraft carburattors and you will without problems have 140bhp.

Optimizing the head equals bigger valves as this gives optimum flow. You can use valves from the C30NE engines, theese could propably be found in SA from a Commodore or similar ? Otherwise Ebay.de is the place to get theese.

If keeping it around 140-150bhp a set of 40´s webers or dellorto´s should be sufficient with 36mm venturis. If you tune further (160-170hp) you should go with 45´s with 40mm venturis to make sure the engine dont run lean in high rpm´s.

But it definatly will provide you with the 140 bhp. Remember to get the flywheel lightened also. This really makes a difference on the CIH. Also a reinforced oilpumpwould be a good idea, but not extremly important.. A trick is to use any oilpump from any CIH diesel engine but theese can be quite hard to find.

[Stev0]

great news... so 40mm sidedrafts are still a bit on the small side for a strong 1.9?

Another little trick I want to try is balancing the crank with the lightened flywheel and clutch already bolted on.. How much mass should be taken off the flywheel? i don't want something that revs like a bike, i still want some engine momentum..

Do i use the std exhaust manifold with a 52mm (a touch over 2") freeflow exhaust system?

I plan to remove the viscous fan and install an electric unit on the radiator, which i'd also really like to replace with something a bit bigger.. i heard the crank mounted fan saps ALOT of power from the motor...

611, you used an 8" clutch? what size clutch did the manta's come out with standard? was the 8" an aftermarket item or from another vehicle?

a big question i have with regards to the valves: can i run unleaded fuel with the motor as it is now or do i need to have soft metal valve seats pressed in?

if i use the bigger valves from the C30NE motor (found in the south african commodore ), do i need to replace the intake and exhaust valves?

monzta the CIH diesel engines are scarce as hens teeth here, i actually have never seen one, but I have plenty of time to look for one while i'm busy with the rest of the build.. would you say it's a good idea to put the lifters from the 1.6 into my build or should i leave it?

i should also raise the oil level of the head by extending the feed port, if i remember correctly..

one last thing... camshaft... what works and what doesn't?? since i'm running sidedrafts i can go a bit higher on duration without sacrificing smoothness, but does anyone have any suggestions as to a specific, potent mid-range camshaft to use?

Edited October 12, 2012 by Stev0

[611]

Hi StevO

Im not sure what the A series came with as standard, but i got mine from a 2.0l as i have the 5 speed box and it was a AP clutch. I still have it in the loft as im not using it so can look out the part number as you might be able to track one down.

And i would loose the standard fan and go with a kenlow or simmilar as its much better cooling as well. The head i ran was a 2.0L with just bigger inlet valves and ran nice and i only had a fast road cam so something a bit wilder would give you a biger power range. Mine was a Kent one, but Enem look to have some nice stuff http://www.enem.com/

Andy

[monzta]

great news... so 40mm sidedrafts are still a bit on the small side for a strong 1.9?

Depends on the rev range. If you end up with a 8000rpm engine i will definatly say, yes, you will need 45´s. But on a 6000-6500rpm 150bhp engine a set of 40´s will do fine.

Another little trick I want to try is balancing the crank with the lightened flywheel and clutch already bolted on.. How much mass should be taken off the flywheel? i don't want something that revs like a bike, i still want some engine momentum..

You can easily remove 2,5kg of material. The CIH will not rev like a bike unless you use aluminium flywheel

Do i use the std exhaust manifold with a 52mm (a touch over 2") freeflow exhaust system?

No. You should use a stock GTE exhaust manifold. The stock 1,9 manifold for carburattor cannot be used as there is a big square hole at the top of it where the carburator gets heated. A stock GTE manifold is what you need, and do not go above 52mm (2") exhaust. CIH engines respond very well to exhaust tuning, but you need exhaust gas speed and not free-flow. So dont mount something with only one muffler.

I plan to remove the viscous fan and install an electric unit on the radiator, which i'd also really like to replace with something a bit bigger.. i heard the crank mounted fan saps ALOT of power from the motor

You can gain a couple of hp at best so its really up to you. However i will still recommend putting a thermostate controlled electrical fan in the car as this ensures cooling. You can do with an oilcooler as well. You can get the oil cooler kit from a SA Commodore straight 6 engine. Its a flange that is mounted between the oil filter and the engine with in and outlet for oil. The oil cooler on a commodore is located in the radiator, so this can not be used. I will also recommend getting the water expansion system from a Commodore and changing the radiator to a closed system. This works alot better.

a big question i have with regards to the valves: can i run unleaded fuel with the motor as it is now or do i need to have soft metal valve seats pressed in?

No if you want to run unleaded fuel you should change the metal valve seats.

if i use the bigger valves from the C30NE motor (found in the south african commodore ), do i need to replace the intake and exhaust valves?

Its not nessesary but what comes in must come out, and i would change both inlet and exhaust valves.

monzta the CIH diesel engines are scarce as hens teeth here, i actually have never seen one, but I have plenty of time to look for one while i'm busy with the rest of the build.. would you say it's a good idea to put the lifters from the 1.6 into my build or should i leave it?

You got your time cut out for you then . Regarding the lifters that depends on the camshaft beeing used.

i should also raise the oil level of the head by extending the feed port, if i remember correctly..

Correct

one last thing... camshaft... what works and what doesn't?? since i'm running sidedrafts i can go a bit higher on duration without sacrificing smoothness, but does anyone have any suggestions as to a specific, potent mid-range camshaft to use?

There is only one cam that i will recommend you. A ENEM Y12 camshaft. 20hp without breaking a sweat, more when you double-carb the bastard They are not that expensive, but will perhaps cost you a bit in freight as they come from Sweden. www.enem.se

This cam is for hydraulic lifters, and you will not need to change valvesprings, lifters or anything. Its a direct mount.

Edited October 12, 2012 by monzta

[Stev0]

Thanks for the response guys...

611 thanks for the advice, i will try to find a rekord berlina 2.2 clutch kit, that should be ample for my application...

Monzta:

Depends on the rev range. If you end up with a 8000rpm engine i will definatly say, yes, you will need 45´s. But on a 6000-6500rpm 150bhp engine a set of 40´s will do fine.

I'm not a fan of hard rev's and will probably never take her past 6500rpm, so i should be fine with 40's.. i'm going to try with them and see if it does the trick.. you wouldn't happen to know good jet size settings for the carbs??

No. You should use a stock GTE exhaust manifold. The stock 1,9 manifold for carburattor cannot be used as there is a big square hole at the top of it where the carburator gets heated. A stock GTE manifold is what you need, and do not go above 52mm (2") exhaust. CIH engines respond very well to exhaust tuning, but you need exhaust gas speed and not free-flow. So dont mount something with only one muffler.

I don't know if we had a car in South Africa with a GTE type manifold, and importing one is going to be expensive.. Is it not possible to simply weld a plate into the whole for the carb on the original manifold or modify it in some way to work? Does the 2.2 have the same exhaust flange pattern as the 1.9, as i could just use that then? what sort of system should I request from the guys? should i use the original boxes with new 52mm pipe or are there aftermarket mufflers that i can use?

Its not nessesary but what comes in must come out, and i would change both inlet and exhaust valves.

So it's good to assume the C30NE valves fit in nice and safely in the chamber without thinning the port walls out too much (and causing cracks between the valves?

There is only one cam that i will recommend you. A ENEM Y12 camshaft. 20hp without breaking a sweat, more when you double-carb the bastard They are not that expensive, but will perhaps cost you a bit in freight as they come from Sweden. www.enem.se This cam is for hydraulic lifters, and you will not need to change valvesprings, lifters or anything. Its a direct mount.

I see the Y12 is a 288degree cam with 11.2mm lift... does the high duration affect drivability much or not noticable? do you know at what rev range the cam makes power in? another cam that caught my eye was the X1 (284degree, 11.7mm lift).. it's got more lift which is great for power/torque, but the duration isn't as aggressive... Is it also worth looking at or not really?

I will also recommend getting the water expansion system from a Commodore and changing the radiator to a closed system. This works alot better

By Closed system you mean using a water bottle and radiator with no cap? then it would probably be a good idea to get a cross-flow radiator, as they apparently exchange the heat more efficiently.. maybe a radiator with the mounted temp fan switch on the side to sort the fan out too..

Edited October 13, 2012 by Stev0

[monzta]

611 thanks for the advice, i will try to find a rekord berlina 2.2 clutch kit, that should be ample for my application...

You can also use a old straight 6 3,0 litre clutch and flywheel (commodore). Theese have 9" clutches, but can be hard to find with a manual transmission..

I'm not a fan of hard rev's and will probably never take her past 6500rpm, so i should be fine with 40's.. i'm going to try with them and see if it does the trick.. you wouldn't happen to know good jet size settings for the carbs??

Yes i can calculate a setup for you for a stock 1,9 engine, but when tuning you really should have it jetted on a rolling road by a pro as you will need to have to measure the mix. You will need both iddle jets, and airjets, emulsion tubes etc all needs to be changed. What are your carbs current setup and what have they been running on before ? Also regarding the carbs, you should purchase a good linkage setup. This is where people often try to save a buck or two and it often ends up beeing a terrible mistake. The carbs need to feed the engine completely syncronized so use that extra buck to get a good cable setup, with pushrods or similar. dellorto.co.uk sell theese kits and they are really good.

I don't know if we had a car in South Africa with a GTE type manifold, and importing one is going to be expensive.. Is it not possible to simply weld a plate into the whole for the carb on the original manifold or modify it in some way to work? Does the 2.2 have the same exhaust flange pattern as the 1.9, as i could just use that then? what sort of system should I request from the guys? should i use the original boxes with new 52mm pipe or are there aftermarket mufflers that i can use?

The 2,2 exhaust manifold are identical to the 1,9 / 2,0 manifolds so this will fit. You can not weld a plate in as the manifold is made of gauss iron, and even if you do the flow will be disturbed beyond the point of reason. So if you have the option to get a 2,2 manifold you should take it. Alternatly you can mount a header type manifold but on the CIH´s you will often loose torque by applying this upgrade. For all CIH 4 cylinder engines everything is identical. The only engines that differ a bit is the 2,2 and 2,4 engines. The difference on theese opposite the others (1,6 / 1,9 and 2,0) is that the intake ports are raised and therefore the intake is a bit different. Also the thermostate housing is alot different. Other than that, everything is interchangable.

Regarding exhaust system a good 2" setup will do fine. You will need a complete setup. What i was warning you about is if you make a 2" system yourself and only puts in one backbox or something. Any 2" system will be fine, and you will need a backbox and a box aproximatly before the rear axle under the car to give a bit of resistance. Exhaust tuning is a science really, and where some engines respond best to free-flow exhaust, others respond better to a more restricted exhaust. The CIH responds best to a restricted exhaust. Without getting too technical the theory is that the gasses in the exhaust when travelling with high speed in a restricted system will actually help pull exhaust gasses out of the engine giving better flow. So high speed exhaust gasses are what you need in a CIH. But then again you shouldnt restrict the exhaust to the point where the engine will have to push the exhaust through the exhaust system. You can buy tons of aftermarket pieces to make you own system, or buy a finished one. With minor changes a Manta B exhaust system will fit as well. So this could be an option. I have used Simons / Rays systems for many years. The only system i has been really discouraged by is OneTwoPipe. Their exhaust systems are crap.

So it's good to assume the C30NE valves fit in nice and safely in the chamber without thinning the port walls out too much (and causing cracks between the valves?

Yes, the C30NE head and all CIH heads are more or less similar in build. Also the size difference isnt that big, but just big enough to make a difference..

I see the Y12 is a 288degree cam with 11.2mm lift... does the high duration affect drivability much or not noticable? do you know at what rev range the cam makes power in? another cam that caught my eye was the X1 (284degree, 11.7mm lift).. it's got more lift which is great for power/torque, but the duration isn't as aggressive... Is it also worth looking at or not really?

CIH engines have in stock configuration a very agressive camshaft compared to other cars. The stock CIH cam generally has a rather high duration, so do not be scared by the durations on tuning cams. The important stuff to consider is the lift regarding CIH mild tuning up to a certain point. My oppinion on the Y12 is that its the best sportscam on the market for CIH because it gives you every day drivability. It can also be fitted on GTE cars with injection systems. Its a really good all round cam, that gives you power and drivability. You will not end up with a car that needs to iddle at 1500rpm. Also the double carbs gives an exceptionally smooth iddle by itself (a double carbed engine can actually run fine on only 2 cylinders!) so you will still get a nice easy iddle and good acceleration response.

I cant remember if the X1 requires solid lifters ? As said i can vouch for the Y 12 cam, i havent tried the X1 but i am sure that everything ENEM makes is perfect though. So its up to you really. The y12 makes power around the 5500-6000rpm´s.

By Closed system you mean using a water bottle and radiator with no cap? then it would probably be a good idea to get a cross-flow radiator, as they apparently exchange the heat more efficiently.. maybe a radiator with the mounted temp fan switch on the side to sort the fan out too..

Yup thats right

Edited October 13, 2012 by monzta

[Stev0]

You can also use a old straight 6 3,0 litre clutch and flywheel (commodore). Theese have 9" clutches, but can be hard to find with a manual transmission..

Would you say it's neccesary to go 9"? what size is the original clutch of the 1.9? i suppose it's better to over-compensate than not but it gets expensive working according to that theory...

Yes i can calculate a setup for you for a stock 1,9 engine, but when tuning you really should have it jetted on a rolling road by a pro as you will need to have to measure the mix. You will need both iddle jets, and airjets, emulsion tubes etc all needs to be changed. What are your carbs current setup and what have they been running on before ? Also regarding the carbs, you should purchase a good linkage setup. This is where people often try to save a buck or two and it often ends up beeing a terrible mistake. The carbs need to feed the engine completely syncronized so use that extra buck to get a good cable setup, with pushrods or similar. dellorto.co.uk sell theese kits and they are really good.

Yes i hear you regarding the tuning... it's going to be quite difficult as there are very few experts and carb tuners available here who'll be able to help. I'll have a look at what i can get linkage wise... the dellorto site looks good for linkages but maybe i can salvage a linkage setup off an existing car (maybe an alfa or something) and use that... i'm going to have to set the linkages up while the carbs are already installed, as the inlets aren't one piece..

The 2,2 exhaust manifold are identical to the 1,9 / 2,0 manifolds so this will fit. You can not weld a plate in as the manifold is made of gauss iron, and even if you do the flow will be disturbed beyond the point of reason. So if you have the option to get a 2,2 manifold you should take it. Alternatly you can mount a header type manifold but on the CIH´s you will often loose torque by applying this upgrade. For all CIH 4 cylinder engines everything is identical. The only engines that differ a bit is the 2,2 and 2,4 engines. The difference on theese opposite the others (1,6 / 1,9 and 2,0) is that the intake ports are raised and therefore the intake is a bit different. Also the thermostate housing is alot different. Other than that, everything is interchangable.

Regarding exhaust system a good 2" setup will do fine. You will need a complete setup. What i was warning you about is if you make a 2" system yourself and only puts in one backbox or something. Any 2" system will be fine, and you will need a backbox and a box aproximatly before the rear axle under the car to give a bit of resistance. Exhaust tuning is a science really, and where some engines respond best to free-flow exhaust, others respond better to a more restricted exhaust. The CIH responds best to a restricted exhaust. Without getting too technical the theory is that the gasses in the exhaust when travelling with high speed in a restricted system will actually help pull exhaust gasses out of the engine giving better flow. So high speed exhaust gasses are what you need in a CIH. But then again you shouldnt restrict the exhaust to the point where the engine will have to push the exhaust through the exhaust system. You can buy tons of aftermarket pieces to make you own system, or buy a finished one. With minor changes a Manta B exhaust system will fit as well. So this could be an option. I have used Simons / Rays systems for many years. The only system i has been really discouraged by is OneTwoPipe. Their exhaust systems are crap.

So everything is interchangable? oil pumps, timing chains, cylinder heads? I will still get my 2.2 engine eventually, then simply build everything over onto that engine (with new inlet manifold and 45's) and go from there.. basically regarding the exhaust, i should get an exhaust manifold from a fuel injection example, no matter what it is, and use that.. regarding the exhaust, when going stainless and 2", i should get the builder to simply copy my existing standard system exactly (every bend and box placement), and that will yield the best results?

Yes, the C30NE head and all CIH heads are more or less similar in build. Also the size difference isnt that big, but just big enough to make a difference..

I think i might want to have valve seats put in, as lead replacement petrol is now becoming hard to find, and it's just easier when you know you can put any kind of fuel in and it won't cause major problems.. I will search for the c30ne valves (42mm and 46mm am i right?), they are straight fit as far as length and stem ends are concerned?

CIH engines have in stock configuration a very agressive camshaft compared to other cars. The stock CIH cam generally has a rather high duration, so do not be scared by the durations on tuning cams. The important stuff to consider is the lift regarding CIH mild tuning up to a certain point. My oppinion on the Y12 is that its the best sportscam on the market for CIH because it gives you every day drivability. It can also be fitted on GTE cars with injection systems. Its a really good all round cam, that gives you power and drivability. You will not end up with a car that needs to iddle at 1500rpm. Also the double carbs gives an exceptionally smooth iddle by itself (a double carbed engine can actually run fine on only 2 cylinders!) so you will still get a nice easy iddle and good acceleration response.

I cant remember if the X1 requires solid lifters ? As said i can vouch for the Y 12 cam, i havent tried the X1 but i am sure that everything ENEM makes is perfect though. So its up to you really. The y12 makes power around the 5500-6000rpm´s.

Yes that's correct.. i've done a bit of homework on camshaft theory (not CIH but theory applies to all) and i've found that when running a butterfly-per-cylinder setup, your cam durations can go much higher without affecting smoothness... the only area where it causes issues is when the cylinders share a common plenum area (1-in-to-4 manifold) where air-scavenging starts occuring between cylinders due to the overlap of valve durations... very scientific, but it basically means if you want drivability on a higher duration camshaft, make sure your cylinders aren't sucking from the same area, ie. go for ITB's or sidedrafts.. I spoke to Jan Carneborn from ENEM regarding the Y12 and X1 camshafts.. For your own info, they are both hydraulic, but Jan tells me the X1 requires a special springset with underlay washers due to the higher lift, and will make the std springs go "coilbind". The X1 yields slightly better maximum power, but in my opinion not worth the effort, so you were right in suggesting the Y12

[monzta]

Would you say it's neccesary to go 9"? what size is the original clutch of the 1.9? i suppose it's better to over-compensate than not but it gets expensive working according to that theory...

No its not a problem on your build. If it becomes a problem its an easy mod to make later on.

Yes i hear you regarding the tuning... it's going to be quite difficult as there are very few experts and carb tuners available here who'll be able to help. I'll have a look at what i can get linkage wise... the dellorto site looks good for linkages but maybe i can salvage a linkage setup off an existing car (maybe an alfa or something) and use that... i'm going to have to set the linkages up while the carbs are already installed, as the inlets aren't one piece..

Try and see if there are some historic racing association there of sorts, those guys often fidle with webers etc. Here in Denmark there are also only 2 tuners that advertise that they adjust this stuff but in real life 100´s of guys can sort it out.

So everything is interchangable? oil pumps, timing chains, cylinder heads? I will still get my 2.2 engine eventually, then simply build everything over onto that engine (with new inlet manifold and 45's) and go from there.. basically regarding the exhaust, i should get an exhaust manifold from a fuel injection example, no matter what it is, and use that.. regarding the exhaust, when going stainless and 2", i should get the builder to simply copy my existing standard system exactly (every bend and box placement), and that will yield the best results

Thats right. Everything is build from the same basic engine, and only very few things has been changed over the years. The very early CIH engines (1,7 and 1,5) are not the same with many things. Parts from theese engines can generally not be used in the 1,6-2,4 range.

If you are getting a 2,2 you should definatly use the head from this engine. Its the best head, and no matter what kind of 1,9 cih head you have, the 2,2 /2,4 heads will always be better. It will lower your CR slightly but that will not be a problem ever. A completely stock 2,2 CIH with a set of 40´s and a 2,5" exhaust makes 141bhp.

I think i might want to have valve seats put in, as lead replacement petrol is now becoming hard to find, and it's just easier when you know you can put any kind of fuel in and it won't cause major problems.. I will search for the c30ne valves (42mm and 46mm am i right?), they are straight fit as far as length and stem ends are concerned?

That is correct. Its a direct fit.

Yes that's correct.. i've done a bit of homework on camshaft theory (not CIH but theory applies to all) and i've found that when running a butterfly-per-cylinder setup, your cam durations can go much higher without affecting smoothness... the only area where it causes issues is when the cylinders share a common plenum area (1-in-to-4 manifold) where air-scavenging starts occuring between cylinders due to the overlap of valve durations... very scientific, but it basically means if you want drivability on a higher duration camshaft, make sure your cylinders aren't sucking from the same area, ie. go for ITB's or sidedrafts.. I spoke to Jan Carneborn from ENEM regarding the Y12 and X1 camshafts.. For your own info, they are both hydraulic, but Jan tells me the X1 requires a special springset with underlay washers due to the higher lift, and will make the std springs go "coilbind". The X1 yields slightly better maximum power, but in my opinion not worth the effort, so you were right in suggesting the Y12

There you go

Look if you are getting a 2,2 CIH you should stop thinking more about the 1,9. It will be a complete waste of time. On a 2,2 the things that you are doing to the 1,9 and will give you 140-150bhp will give you 160-170bhp on a 2,2 it is that much better and more tunable!

[Stev0]

Try and see if there are some historic racing association there of sorts, those guys often fidle with webers etc. Here in Denmark there are also only 2 tuners that advertise that they adjust this stuff but in real life 100´s of guys can sort it out.

maybe if i have a similar setup to one of the guys on the forum i could get ideas of settings from them.. i'm no expert of sidedrafts but it should be the same kind of idea as downdrafts..

Thats right. Everything is build from the same basic engine, and only very few things has been changed over the years. The very early CIH engines (1,7 and 1,5) are not the same with many things. Parts from theese engines can generally not be used in the 1,6-2,4 range.

If you are getting a 2,2 you should definatly use the head from this engine. Its the best head, and no matter what kind of 1,9 cih head you have, the 2,2 /2,4 heads will always be better. It will lower your CR slightly but that will not be a problem ever. A completely stock 2,2 CIH with a set of 40´s and a 2,5" exhaust makes 141bhp.

So the 2.2 engine fits straight into the manta engine bay with original engine mounts etc? all the extra's simply bolt onto the engine the same it would to the 1.9? i still think if i'm going as far as to use the 2.2 head, i might aswell use the whole 2.2 lump for the longer stroke and more torque..

Look if you are getting a 2,2 CIH you should stop thinking more about the 1,9. It will be a complete waste of time. On a 2,2 the things that you are doing to the 1,9 and will give you 140-150bhp will give you 160-170bhp on a 2,2 it is that much better and more tunable!

thing is, if i'm going 2.2, i don't JUST want to buy the engine... ideally i'd like to get a whole donor car so that i can use more parts around the 2.2, and my financials don't really justify that spending right now, a complete rekord berlina 2.2 goes for around R15 000 (£1200), so i will buy the Y12 camshaft and other bits and pieces which are interchangable between the 1.9 and 2.2 (not balance the 1.9 crank etc). the guys want silly prices when you buy just the exhaust manifold or just the cylinder head.. i'd rather buy the whole car for a little bit more, put a 1.9 into it and sell it as is..

[monzta]

Try and see if there are some historic racing association there of sorts, those guys often fidle with webers etc. Here in Denmark there are also only 2 tuners that advertise that they adjust this stuff but in real life 100´s of guys can sort it out.

maybe if i have a similar setup to one of the guys on the forum i could get ideas of settings from them.. i'm no expert of sidedrafts but it should be the same kind of idea as downdrafts..

Thats right. Everything is build from the same basic engine, and only very few things has been changed over the years. The very early CIH engines (1,7 and 1,5) are not the same with many things. Parts from theese engines can generally not be used in the 1,6-2,4 range.

If you are getting a 2,2 you should definatly use the head from this engine. Its the best head, and no matter what kind of 1,9 cih head you have, the 2,2 /2,4 heads will always be better. It will lower your CR slightly but that will not be a problem ever. A completely stock 2,2 CIH with a set of 40´s and a 2,5" exhaust makes 141bhp.

So the 2.2 engine fits straight into the manta engine bay with original engine mounts etc? all the extra's simply bolt onto the engine the same it would to the 1.9? i still think if i'm going as far as to use the 2.2 head, i might aswell use the whole 2.2 lump for the longer stroke and more torque..

Look if you are getting a 2,2 CIH you should stop thinking more about the 1,9. It will be a complete waste of time. On a 2,2 the things that you are doing to the 1,9 and will give you 140-150bhp will give you 160-170bhp on a 2,2 it is that much better and more tunable!

thing is, if i'm going 2.2, i don't JUST want to buy the engine... ideally i'd like to get a whole donor car so that i can use more parts around the 2.2, and my financials don't really justify that spending right now, a complete rekord berlina 2.2 goes for around R15 000 (£1200), so i will buy the Y12 camshaft and other bits and pieces which are interchangable between the 1.9 and 2.2 (not balance the 1.9 crank etc). the guys want silly prices when you buy just the exhaust manifold or just the cylinder head.. i'd rather buy the whole car for a little bit more, put a 1.9 into it and sell it as is..

There is nothing on a Rekord Berlina you can use apart from the engine, the gearbox (wich will need modifying) and the front brake calipers wich is really not that great.

Apart from this nothing can be used ....

Yes you can put in the 2,2 as it is. You will need to make the following changes. Engine mounts on the engine needs to be the Manta A ones. The oilpan needs to be changed with on for a Manta A, as well as the oil pickup in the sump.

You will need other intakes for the sidedrafts as the intake on the 2,2 head is different from the 1,9.

The ignition is a bit different on a 2,2 and uses a smaller diameter axle etc. It will work in the engine with carbs but the parts for this is not interchangable with the 1,9 ones.

As said, i would still go for the 2,2 if this is a real option it is so much better and will add 20-25hp to anything you could do with a 1,9

[monzta]

Oh forgot this. If you want to adjust the sidedrafts yourself you will need this book: http://www.amazon.com/Build-Dellorto-Carburettors-SpeedPro-Series/dp/1903706750

I have it and its great. Puts you through all the things you need to pay attention to, and lets you calculate the different jet sizes etc.

You will also need a AFR meter to put in your exhaust. I have often wanted one mounted in the car even for sidedrafts, only thing is to function with carbs you will need a wideband AFT meter, and Lambda probe. Will tell you if your car runs lean, or fat mixture. Its often quite normal that a set of sidedrafts will run the engine on the fatter side when iddling, wich normalizes once you hit the pedal

[Stev0]

hmmm i see.. so you can't even use the rekord driveshaft and diff? I want to move away from the whole torque tube design as the guys tell me those don't really last under power.. will also try to source a 2.2 clutch and pressure plate, as those should handle horsepower..

I'm obviously also going to have to install a facet fuel pump to keep up with the sidedrafts.. or is that not neccesary? i'd really like to go the 2.2 route, i suppose i should just leave the 1.9 in the car and not spend anything on it until i've saved up enough for a once off conversion to 2.2.. I'm quite a fan of taller stroke motors as they grunt harder when you put your foot down..

Are the main and big-end bearing sizes the same between the two? Obviously neither the pistons, nor the rods are the same

Thanks for the book suggestion.. i will look into getting it and set the carbs myself... regarding the AFR, should i go for an onboard one as to check mixtures while driving or not? which brands are accurate enough to spend money on? I've heard AEM is a good choice, but a bit pricey..

[monzta]

hmmm i see.. so you can't even use the rekord driveshaft and diff? I want to move away from the whole torque tube design as the guys tell me those don't really last under power.. will also try to source a 2.2 clutch and pressure plate, as those should handle horsepower..

Thats right you cant. The rekord axle is too wide. You can use a Manta B one even though this unit is also wider than the original. However its only 21mm per side so its not that far off. This will bolt straight on, but still have the torque tube. You should check your original axle as some A series cars had torque tubes in iron instead of aluminium. Theese are sought after by rally folks as theese don´t brake! If you have this item i would keep it. If not you can use a Volvo 240/740 rear axle, but thats a big conversion, but can be made to look original. The width is the same.

I'm obviously also going to have to install a facet fuel pump to keep up with the sidedrafts.. or is that not neccesary? i'd really like to go the 2.2 route, i suppose i should just leave the 1.9 in the car and not spend anything on it until i've saved up enough for a once off conversion to 2.2.. I'm quite a fan of taller stroke motors as they grunt harder when you put your foot down..

That depends. If you are to use the 2,2 then yes you will need the facet pump (any aftermarket one will do) as the 2,2 does not have a mechanical fuel pump. The place where this is found on the 1,9 is just blocked on the 2,2. If you are using the 1,9 the original pump will actually do a fine job feeding the sidedrafts

Are the main and big-end bearing sizes the same between the two? Obviously neither the pistons, nor the rods are the same

The 2,2 is made from a 2,0 block. So when you get the 2,2 engine you should not be suprised that the engine block actually says 2,0 on the block below the alternator When Opel made the 2,2 they just pulled alot of 2,0E blocks from the shelfe

The major difference between the 2,2 and the 1,9/2,0 is the crankshaft. This is where the stroke is made longer. Both the bore and the rods are if i remember correctly the same. So if you are thinking of putting the internals into your 1,9 block this is a bolt on job (please note that its possible you will need an overbore when using the 1,9 block). This is actually the best way to do it as your 1,9 block has the water channels going closer to the cylinders than the 2,0 and 2,2 block does. So you will gain a bit more cooling this way

Thanks for the book suggestion.. i will look into getting it and set the carbs myself... regarding the AFR, should i go for an onboard one as to check mixtures while driving or not? which brands are accurate enough to spend money on? I've heard AEM is a good choice, but a bit pricey..

This book is considered by many to be the sidedraft "bible" of all times. Many tuners use this book when adjusting or restoring carbs. However you should know that tuning in a Weber or Dellorto is not a question of opening a book and looking at the schematics. This will only get you a basic adjustment. So what you should do is to buy jets, emulsion tubes etc in different sizes. Say you need a F16 emulsion tube (this is most common). You will then need a say 40 air jet. Then you should also purchase 41 and 42 airjet as adjustment is purely done by changing jets.

Regarding the AFR meter as said when used for non turbo cars it needs to be wideband. This is quite hard to find as theres not alot of companies that make them. Personally i would be very happy to have a gauge in the car, as the sidedrafts will need adjusting from time to time, and any difference to the normal setting on a AFR meter would be a indicator to adjust them again. This will also add security so you wont run with a lean mixture..

There are however a couple of things you should consider the 2,2 solution instead. The exhaust needs to be 2,5" instead of 2". Also the sidedrafts will need to be 45´s. When tuning a 2,2 with camshaft you really unleash the power within the engine. The 2,2 in stock configuration has the worst camshaft of all the CIH range. Putting in a stock 2,0E camshaft will actually give like 10 or 12 hp on a stock 2,2 its that bad ! Also the injection is very small on the 2,2 stock. In stock configuration a 2,2 only makes 115 hp. This will change dramatically when tuning it and changing the bad injection and camshaft and its safe to conclude that it will need some air when running. So i figure that a set of 45mm carbs with 38 or 40mm venturis would be the solution. Propably the 38mm venturis would be the right choice when you want a good stable iddle as well

What i am trying to say is that you really needs to make the choice regarding the 1,9 or 2,2 pretty early in the proces as this kind of decide what you should purchase from there onwards. Do you need a 2 or 2,5" exhaust. Do you need 40 or 45mm Webers. Do you need intake manifolds for the 2,2 or the 1,9. All theese things depend on your choice of engine.

Personally in my mind there would not be any question. I would go for the 2,2. Me and my brother made one with this engine once. Gave it a set of 45´s and a 2,5" exhaust. It made 142bhp (the carbs alone with stock exhaust was 129bhp) on rolling road. Afterwards we mounted a 2,0E camshaft and we could feel a big difference, so i figure it ended up on around the 155bhp.

Heres a link to the car (the colour is an original Kadett B colour called "GM Blue")

http://www.bilgaller...70-opel_manta_a

Edited October 16, 2012 by monzta

[Stev0]

Thats right you cant. The rekord axle is too wide. You can use a Manta B one even though this unit is also wider than the original. However its only 21mm per side so its not that far off. This will bolt straight on, but still have the torque tube. You should check your original axle as some A series cars had torque tubes in iron instead of aluminium. Theese are sought after by rally folks as theese don´t brake! If you have this item i would keep it. If not you can use a Volvo 240/740 rear axle, but thats a big conversion, but can be made to look original. The width is the same.

I'm glad i asked because, between my friend and I, we have 5 manta's and we're selling the 2 worst ones off soon... and now i'm going to check what torque tubes they have in and strip them out if they're iron .. use one on mine and sell the other on the forum to cover some expense of the 2.2 conversion.. My friend (who's doing the C22XE conversion) is going to use the M75 LS diff from a 2.5 Chev Nomad, shorten it slightly and use the whole driveshaft assembly from that.. I might look at LS units later, but for now i'm focussing on the engine bay..

That depends. If you are to use the 2,2 then yes you will need the facet pump (any aftermarket one will do) as the 2,2 does not have a mechanical fuel pump. The place where this is found on the 1,9 is just blocked on the 2,2. If you are using the 1,9 the original pump will actually do a fine job feeding the sidedrafts

what does the 1.9 mechanic pump run off? cam lobe? crank gear? I'm quite keen on the facet pump idea, less hang on parts on the engine itself to get that clean look. the less piping and wiring in the engine bay the better.. I know the 1.9 mechanic pump is quite a monster, i stalled a 36DCD onto my manta and the jets were blocked.. the fuel delivered so much fuel pressure it blew the supply line right off!!!

The 2,2 is made from a 2,0 block. So when you get the 2,2 engine you should not be suprised that the engine block actually says 2,0 on the block below the alternator When Opel made the 2,2 they just pulled alot of 2,0E blocks from the shelfe

The major difference between the 2,2 and the 1,9/2,0 is the crankshaft. This is where the stroke is made longer. Both the bore and the rods are if i remember correctly the same. So if you are thinking of putting the internals into your 1,9 block this is a bolt on job (please note that its possible you will need an overbore when using the 1,9 block). This is actually the best way to do it as your 1,9 block has the water channels going closer to the cylinders than the 2,0 and 2,2 block does. So you will gain a bit more cooling this way

the bore on the 1.9 is 93mm, and 2.0/2,2 is 95mm, but the stroke on the 1.9/2,0 is 69.8mm whereas it's 77.5 on the 2.2... that means if I use the 1.9 block, it needs to be bored to 95mm, and use the crank, rods and pistons from the 2.2 (can also use 2.0 pistons but the 2.0 isn't available)... alternatively i could leave it 93mm, use 1.9 pistons and just rods and crank off the 2.2 to get roughly 2.1.. but why not just go all the way and bore since the 2.2 internals are all available..

I understand that boring the 1.9 will yield better cooling due to the thinner walls between the water galleys, but won't it also affect reliability due to pitting and corrosion? also, a huge issue i have with using a 1.9 block with a 2.2 head is the thermostat housing.. I've read that they're not the same and I'm seriously not in the mood to cut and weld and modify anything.. Is there a step-by-step somewhere that i could look at and decide if the effort is worth the reward of slightly better cooling?

This book is considered by many to be the sidedraft "bible" of all times. Many tuners use this book when adjusting or restoring carbs. However you should know that tuning in a Weber or Dellorto is not a question of opening a book and looking at the schematics. This will only get you a basic adjustment. So what you should do is to buy jets, emulsion tubes etc in different sizes. Say you need a F16 emulsion tube (this is most common). You will then need a say 40 air jet. Then you should also purchase 41 and 42 airjet as adjustment is purely done by changing jets.

I have never heard of this book... I have the haynes equivalent but it doesn't really cover any aftermarket applications or tuning as such.. only focuses on the maintenance of carbs, most of which i've never heard of.. will try sell that one to pay for this one haha!! i know this side of the build is going to rip my wallet a new a$$hole, as jets are unbelievably expensive!! i've scoured ebay, local selling sites etc and there's no way of building up a cheap stock of different jets.. unless mantaclub can direct me to some good sources.. I already have an insane amount of downdraft jets (DGV series) stocked up, which help me absolutely nothing when going sidedrafts..

Regarding the AFR meter as said when used for non turbo cars it needs to be wideband. This is quite hard to find as theres not alot of companies that make them. Personally i would be very happy to have a gauge in the car, as the sidedrafts will need adjusting from time to time, and any difference to the normal setting on a AFR meter would be a indicator to adjust them again. This will also add security so you wont run with a lean mixture..

Yeah lean mixtures aren't so engine friendly... i can't remember what 3 gauges are in the centre-console already but i'd like to replace them with oil pressure, AFR and Water temperature (my cluster temp guage is broken).. I see ebay has a good variety wideband gauges, but quite pricey!! will see if there's a cheaper alternative available locally..

What i am trying to say is that you really needs to make the choice regarding the 1,9 or 2,2 pretty early in the proces as this kind of decide what you should purchase from there onwards. Do you need a 2 or 2,5" exhaust. Do you need 40 or 45mm Webers. Do you need intake manifolds for the 2,2 or the 1,9. All theese things depend on your choice of engine.

unfortunately I already have the intakes for the 1.9, but regardless, i've decided to commit to the 2.2 idea, so that means i will spend no further money developing the manta according to the 1.9 motor, and rather save up for the 2.2 system.. that means i can STILL buy the camshaft and everything that is 1.9/2.2 transferable (gaskets, bolts etc.), then just move everything across when the transplant happens..

I like the blue manta, looks like a wolf in sheeps clothing..

[611]

Hi StevO

This is just a bit of advice from my side of things.

I had a 1.9, running 95.5mm pistons, 2.0l head and the engine ran nice and was quite quick. I decided not to use this back in the car and went for a different option.

Looking back i think i would have been better building this into the right engine ormaybe a 2.0l. I know the 2.2 seems like it has more possibilities but im not sure its worth all the extra effort.

The thermostat is a pain and expensive, the same with the inlets. So as montza say, decide before you go too far! i had a friend who had a 2.0l bored out to the max (2.3 i believe) ran a big valve 2.0l head that had all the porting and stuff done and a big cam and that went like Sh.. of a shovel :-) and all the bits are easy.

As soon as you put that pesky 2.2 head on things get expensive and bespoke and what is the block like on the 2.2? will it need to be over bored? are the pistons in the 2.2 the same as the 2.0 as i know the 2.4 are different and expensive if the ones in the 2.2 are a bit worn? The 1.9 block i have still has lots of room to take it out further so could probably get that out to a 2.2?

just my thoughts, if you have the time and money go the 2.2 route if not go with a 2.0l Or maybe the 1.9, i would have mine back on the road a few months ago if i had stuck with the 1.9 and a lot less stress :-)

I will upload a picture of the 2.4 thermostat that i have modified so you can see the difference.

Andy

[moodoo]

Just about to the point where I can offer a small bit of info...

The rods are the same between the 1.9, 2.0 and 2.2, but the 2.2 pistons are different to all the other CIHs...and are very scarce...

I suspect I'm going to end up getting a set of pistons made in the US. (Early 1.9s had forged rods.)

I have an A-series with a 1.9 in, but I'm gathering up the bits to build a 2.2, so am doing lots of research, and pestering Monzta!

I have a good 2.2 head with new valves and lifters, a 2.2 crank and rods, and another 1.9 engine in bits that I'm going to build it into

after an overbore. I'm keeping fuel injection, and have a 3.0 manifold that I'll be getting chopped and welded up. Haven't crossed the

bridge of the thermostat housing yet though, time enough!

[monzta]

I totally agree. Its a difficult choice though. I would go the 2,2 way any day, if a piston is dead i would use 97mm Chevy pistons (they are so cheap that you´d laugh and you get 8 of em´ ) and bore the bastard to get the last 100cc (2,3 ltr)

Thermostate housing is not a problem as its exactly the same one the C30NE goldtop engines from the carltons guys

[611]

Not sure if the 2.2 and 2.4 thermostat housings are the same as not seen a 2.2 one, but had to do a bit of a modification to mine to get it how i wanted it.

http://www.theopelproject.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/021020121943.jpg

http://www.theopelproject.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/021020121944.jpg

http://www.theopelproject.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/021020121945.jpg

http://www.theopelproject.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/021020121946.jpg

I know the 2.2 will be the best option but i suppose its down to time and money in the end :-)

Andy

[monzta]

The thermostate housing of the 2,2 2,4 and C30NE (and all other 12 valve 3,0 litre engines) are the same. So if you are in need of one the way to get one is to find a old Carlton GSi.

But yes it comes down to money and time.

The worst example must be the intake manifolds for sidedrafts. The 1,6-2,0 ones can easily be found for a reasonable price, and used ones can be very cheap. But for the 2,2 or 2,4 theese are extremly expensive, often costing as much as a set of good used sidedraft 40s ! ! !

When i tuned up my 78´ Monza some years back i installed a C30NE and mounted triple Dellorto´s. Got 4 complete Dellorto 40´s for around 250 quid, but had to pay almost 400 £ for the intakes ! ! ! !!

When getting to work on a old A series you really need to draw a line somewhere

Edited October 18, 2012 by monzta

[Stev0]

Thanks for the response guys...

Andy I'm just confused... if i use a 2.2 head with a 2.2 thermostat housing on a 1.9 block, what would the issue be? monzta said that the blocks are all the same... As for the inlets, i heard somewhere that 1.9 intakes can be made to fit 2.2 cylinder head..

Looks like if I go 2.2, it's going to be a long-term project.. In the meantime I can buy and use the camshaft in the 1.9 as that can always be taken out later and built into the 2.2, I already have the 1.9 intakes (courtesy of Andy) and a set of 40's already lying at home to bolt on, all i need is the 2.2 exhaust manifold (which i would need anyway for the conversion later). That should keep me entertained while i build the beast..

Then i can acquire a 2.2 engine at leisure and strip it down to see what can be used and what needs replacing.. if the bore or the pistons are bad like monzta said i'll just replace with something oversize and bore the fukker..

moodoo thanks for the valuble input... so all the rods are the same, and the 2.2 piston, although the same dia as the 2.0, is alot flatter to compensate for the extra throw of the crank.. great news, as this means i have 4, maybe 5 sets of rods from which i can select the lightest (or closest) 4 and add a bit of blueprinting to the build.. friend of mine from VW racing always did that to gain that fraction more balance and it always came to 1-2hp more.. not much, but since it doesn't cost me anything, it's free horsepower..

So the 2.2 intakes are expensive?? i might consider building my own intakes by chopping the F.I. intake and welding a flange on then, port it out etc.. will see if that's possible when i get to it.. maybe i can swop moodoo for a set of 2.2 pistons, as i have a contact here who gets these things seperately..

So the first thing on my agenda is the exhaust manifold and camshaft, since it goes with the current and future build

[moodoo]

I totally agree. Its a difficult choice though. I would go the 2,2 way any day, if a piston is dead i would use 97mm Chevy pistons (they are so cheap that you´d laugh and you get 8 of em´ ) and bore the bastard to get the last 100cc (2,3 ltr)

Monzta - I thought the max safe overbore on a 1.9 block was 95.5, or maybe 96 at a push? Is it possible to go 97mm on a 1.9, or you need a 2.0 block for that?

....all i need is the 2.2 exhaust manifold (which i would need anyway for the conversion later). That should keep me entertained while i build the beast..

I could be wrong, but I think the 1.9 exhaust manifold will fit the 2.2 head? As far as I know it's the inlet ports which are higher up in the 2.2 head, but the exhaust ones are in the same place. Someone with more experience might know if the 2.2 manifold is an improvement?

[Stev0]

moodoo i think monzta was referring to me buying a complete 2.2 motor and boring it if a piston was dead, like andy said...

the 1.9 and 2.2 exhaust manifolds are interchangable.. the snag is, if you're moving away from single downdraft carburation as on the 19S, you need the 2.2 exhaust manifold (or any F.I. setup) as the 1.9 has got a great big hole in it to warm the carburettor, which is left exposed if you go F.I or twin side drafts..

[monzta]

Excactly

Regarding the bore of the 1,9 it seems that some 1,9´s can be bored extensivly and others cannot. There are no obvios signs of what engine can do what, but my theory is that it has something to do with age. I believe that at some point propably late 70´s (1,9 for Manta B and Ascona the block where changed a bit to make room for the 2,0 series engines... But thats all guessing on my part.

Andy I'm just confused... if i use a 2.2 head with a 2.2 thermostat housing on a 1.9 block, what would the issue be? monzta said that the blocks are all the same... As for the inlets, i heard somewhere that 1.9 intakes can be made to fit 2.2 cylinder head..

What Andy is trying to say is that the 2,2 is a more expensive and at certain points exotic engine to play with. The thermostate housing is really the smallest of problems. The big issue is the intake manifolds for the carburettors imo. Yes the 1,9 ones can be made to fit but needs to be made very well as each one holds a entire carb not connected like the original intake manifolds. Also you should take care not to make a bottle neck. The other option is to make one yourself. This is a real option and i can supply you with cad/cam drawings of the Weber / Dellorto flange. What remains is to get some tubing bended to fit and make this go from a round shape (carb) to a square(ish) shape for the head. Make a flange from the original 2,2 intake manifold or make a new one using the head or the gasket as reference point.

This subject is also covered in the "how to powertune Weber and Dellorto" making your own manifolds that is. Even steel ones can be great...!

Still i also agree that the 2,2 is a more exotic item than the 1,9/2,0 engines and parts can be hard to find. This is however concentrated on the block where the pistons and the crank is the parts that are hard to find (and regarding pistons theres a nice solution to this called 2,3 ltr ) Apart from that loads of stuff can be used from the C30NE´s that are readily available also in SA.