Stev0 Posted October 18, 2012 Author Share Posted October 18, 2012 monzta are there pictures of the differences between the thermostat housings and what to do to fix the problem? it's bugging me.. I've spoken to some of the south african guys and i've found a guy that specialises with the manta's.. he says my 1.9 intakes won't work as the right hand drive manta's have their brake boosters on the right side which foul on the side drafts when installed.. I'll have to see about that still, as i believe andy's manta is also RHD... luckily he deals in parts too and apparently has intakes and camshafts for all types.. it's always a better option buying within South Africa because the exchange rate is always baaaaad... said that, i'd like to stick to ENEM for the cam though, as cams can be same spec but profile shape completely different!! moodoo: would you like me to find you some 2.2 pistons? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
611 Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 Hi Steve Im not trying to put you off the 2.2 option, and and montza says the thermostat is not a major problem, i dont think any of the bits are major, it just that with the 1.9/2.0 its just a case of some engine work, bolt all the bits back on and away you go. The 2.2 to start off with seems the same but then you just find little bits that you have to sort out as you go along. My advice would be get the 1.9 all up and running nice as you say. Then get the 2.2 and go over it make a list of all the little bits that need sorting and work through them to find the best and cheapest option. The brake servo for your current setup on the right hand drive is easy. I have just gone with a better pedal setup and non servo assisted or some people move the servo up to the front and just extend the push rod. I know the vauxhall nova and a linkage inside that worked on a lever system so the pedal box worked the servo on the left of the car. something i did want to look at, but never got round to it :-) And as for the 1.9 blocks i have two, one taken out to the 95.5 and there still looks like room for about 2mm and another one that only looks like it would go to 96mm at max, much thinner walls? not sure which is the newer one? Andy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moodoo Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 moodoo i think monzta was referring to me buying a complete 2.2 motor and boring it if a piston was dead, like andy said... Sorry...my bad...missed that..! Stev0..on 2.2 pistons...I actually have a set that came with the 2.2 crank I got, but the ring lands are worn. I'm sure I read somewhere recently that guys have used 2.0 rings in worn 2.2 pistons...that's pretty much the point I'm at in gathering bits...whether I take a chance on doing that, or whether I get a set of pistons made. You think you could get 2.2 pistons in good condition? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monzta Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 (edited) This is for 1,6 - 1,9 and 2,0 CIH This is for 2,2 - 2,4 and 3,0 CIH. Please note that this item is for a carburatted 2,2/2,4 and is not at all like the original item regarding thermostate housing. The difference between the two as you can see is at the mounting surface wich is VERY different and cannot be made to fit! Edited October 18, 2012 by monzta Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stev0 Posted October 19, 2012 Author Share Posted October 19, 2012 moodoo i've heard somewhere that 2.2 pistons are actually a load of crap, and that they wear easily and the skirt collapse and allsorts of nasty things happen at low milage, so i don't think i should get a set for you, as they'll be coming out of a closed engine and i won't know the condition until i have them in hand.. i kinda like monzta's idea of going slightly bigger with brand spanking new pistons from a chevy or what ever will fit.. at least then you KNOW that will graft and parts are easily found and the bore is 100's regardless of how you got the motor... @monzta: at the risk of sounding stupid, i'm not seeing the issue.. why can't you use std 2.2 thermostat housing with the 2.2 head on a 1.9 block? is there a bit of the housing that bolts to the block that doesn't match up? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
611 Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 Hi Steve You can use the 2.2 thermostat on the 2.2 head, but i think the standard one needs modifying (i might be wrong, the 2.4 one does) the one in Monzta's picture is of an after market one and some are quite expensive :-) you cant mod the 2.0l one. And your right on the pistons, the long stroke does scuff the piston skirts and you will probably find the pistons worn and a rebore needed. I think they can ware them a bit oval on older engines. I looked at 96mm from the US and they come in at about $400, but you also need to look at getting a different head gasket as well if your going above 95.5 on the bore. Monzta might know where you can get these for a good price as i found it had to find one when looking so stuck with just going to 95.5mm and using the standard gasket. Andy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stev0 Posted October 19, 2012 Author Share Posted October 19, 2012 (edited) speaking of getting things for a good price?? where the hell am i going to get a set of 2.2 intakes for less than a kidney??! this is the info i've gathered so far: http://www.motorscop...Inlet_Manifolds 457845 Mangoletsi Inlet Manifold, Twin Side Draught 45mm Twin Choke Carbs, Opel/Vauxhall 2.2/2.4 CIH Engine £183.95 http://www.dbilas-sh...plbc91f5ju55jn1 Intake manifold for Opel 2,2 - 2,4 8V CIH long, incl. O-Ring flange-set long, incl. O-Ring flange-set 2,2 - 2,4 8V CIH from 240,20 EUR www.enem.se 17-01-800 Inlet manifolds DCOE CIH 2.2/2.4(pair) SEK2569,00 17-01-900 Thermostat housing SEK 560,00 http://www.risse-mot...4-ltr--CIH.html Inlet manifolds 2.2 and 2.4 ltr. CIH Diameter 45 mm Price per pair. SPECIAL PRICE PRICE: 214,00 EUR per pair incl. 19 % VAT http://www.dellorto....artsectionID=46 Opel Manta etc. 2.2/2.4 manifold Inlet manifold to suit twin DCOE/DHLA Part No - OP-007 £195.00 ex. VAT http://www.opelgtsou...i?page=fuel.htm 2.2L-2.4L DUAL SIDE DRAFT MANIFOLDS For 40 or 45 DCOE. Special order item. $498.00 pair http://stores.ebay.d...112131255&_sc=1 Ansaugbrücken für Doppelvergaser Opel Manta, Kadett, Re... EUR 259,95 http://www.knobloch-...augbruecken.htm Opel 2.0 Liter CIH Durchnesser 45 mm- lang 7000 199,4 0 Euro I'm not up for paying that much for a cast aluminum intake.. at this rate i might end up fabricating my own intakes, coz those are ridiculous prices (bearing in mind the exchange rate from South Africa SUCKS).. did i leave out any supplier that could be considered? back to the thermostat housing... why does it need to be modified? are there pipes to blank off/add? does it foul on the intake? do the pipe systems not match? Why does it not graft straight? Edited October 19, 2012 by Stev0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
611 Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 Got mine from Risse in the end as it worked out as the best price for me with the exchange rate. i did think about modifying the ones i had but decided i could end up spending a lot of time getting the intake bit right as they are squared off on the 2.2 and round on the 1.9/2.0 so just thought, sod the cost im going the easy route :-) You need to see a picture on the 2.2 housing to see what it is like compared to the 2.0l to see what needs to be done. If its the same as the 2.4, its off with the bottom pipes and weld the hole up, drill and insert a pipe for the heater matrix feed. Cost me £15 welding and £10 for inleft pipe. So better price than the modified one. This is why i said that maybe the 2.0l engine would be better spending the money on! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stev0 Posted October 19, 2012 Author Share Posted October 19, 2012 quite honestly i've never seen a CIH 2.0 in this country, and i've been scouring for a while now.. don't know what they came in, but whatever it was, we didn't seem to get them.. It also seems as though Risse is the way to go price wise, i remember you saying the dbilas ones are shyte... what brand are the risse ones, and what quality are yours? I'd like to get a closeup look at them if you don't mind putting up some pics.. you said the ports are square on the 2.2 but round on the 1.9 and 2.0, but the 1.9 intakes you sold me have the square ports on them!! I suppose i'll leave the thermostat debacle until i physically have the thing in my hands, then i'll go about check out what's cutting.. if i use the 2.2 block with 2.2 head (don't really want to stuff around with compression too much), will i still have thermostat issues? thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moodoo Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 (sorry, back to the piston question) Stev0 -..no problems, thanks for the offer anyway! Yes, brand new pistons would be peace of mind...but not easy on the wallet! I've looked all over for something off the shelf that is a straight replacement for the 2.2 pistons, but without success. Several pistons are close, but none that don't need machining of rod small ends, or piston tops, or something! By the time I'd buy pistons that are 'close', and then get custom machining done...I think I'd be better off just get custom ones made that I know will fit. I'll likely go no more than 95 or 95.5 bore, given that I'll be starting with a 1.9 block. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
611 Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 Hey Moodo Have you tried Enem for pistons? http://www.enem.se/ the website is not that good but i dropped them an email and Jan there is very helpful, might be worth a try? Hey Steve The Quality of the Riess ones are good quality, will take some better pics. I sort of misled you on the shape. The 2.2/2.4 have squared off edges and are a bit wider. see pics below of 2.0 and 2.2/2.4 I think the 2.0l engine only went in the manta, ascona and Cav mk1 (i might be wrong) http://www.theopelproject.com/?attachment_id=403 http://www.theopelproject.com/?attachment_id=426 you can see my markings on the 2.0l ones on the left one. They need to be widednd, hole moved up and flanges moved. This is why i bought them :-) with the thermostat. i will try and find you a picture as this will solve all your confusion as what this thermostat business is all about :-) it will be very plain to see :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
611 Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 (edited) Here you go, knew i had one somewhere :-) 2.0l on the left and 2.4 on the right (i think the 2.2 is exactly the same) http://www.theopelpr...tachment_id=425 http://www.theopelpr...tachment_id=424 http://www.theopelpr...tachment_id=423 http://www.theopelpr...tachment_id=427 and the finished article http://www.theopelproject.com/?attachment_id=510 http://www.theopelproject.com/?attachment_id=509 http://www.theopelproject.com/?attachment_id=512 Edited October 19, 2012 by 611 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Binnacle-ZA Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 Stevo: Our Rekords did have the 2l CIH. 80's GL, possibly up to around '86 (Then changed over to 20SE). Extremely rare now though, ie. I've seen one. Remember that 5-Speed gearbox I have? That came out of a 2l CIH Rekord. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
611 Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 Is this one? http://cars.brick7.co.za/opel/rekord/301099.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stev0 Posted October 20, 2012 Author Share Posted October 20, 2012 (edited) (sorry, back to the piston question) Stev0 -..no problems, thanks for the offer anyway! Yes, brand new pistons would be peace of mind...but not easy on the wallet! I've looked all over for something off the shelf that is a straight replacement for the 2.2 pistons, but without success. Several pistons are close, but none that don't need machining of rod small ends, or piston tops, or something! By the time I'd buy pistons that are 'close', and then get custom machining done...I think I'd be better off just get custom ones made that I know will fit. I'll likely go no more than 95 or 95.5 bore, given that I'll be starting with a 1.9 block. No worries moodoo, i spoke to a chap who owns a workshop, he says getting 95 replacement pistons is easy as pie, it's getting the offset between the gudgeon pin and the top right, if you're still looking by the time i get to that part of my build i'll let you know.. I'm definitely not going to have custom pistons made, i'm literally going to take a 2.2 piston in hand and dig around until i find something to suite.. Stevo: Our Rekords did have the 2l CIH. 80's GL, possibly up to around '86 (Then changed over to 20SE). Extremely rare now though, ie. I've seen one. Remember that 5-Speed gearbox I have? That came out of a 2l CIH Rekord. Hey Mr Stellenbosch, good to see you still frequent this forum... i honestly have only seen the OHC counterparts.. there are a few rekords on the classfieds that i'm not sure of, but i've seen OHC engines in '83 models, that said, i've seen CIH 2.2 in '89 models.. so i don't know, unless the guys post pics of their engine bays, there's no way to tell, and they're not going to know what the hell you're talking about... were the 2.0 CIH fuel injection? Is this one? http://cars.brick7.c...ord/301099.html no way to tell andy, unless the guy physically sends a pic of his engine bay.. and the guys don't Edited October 20, 2012 by Stev0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Binnacle-ZA Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 Hey Mr Stellenbosch, good to see you still frequent this forum... i honestly have only seen the OHC counterparts.. there are a few rekords on the classfieds that i'm not sure of, but i've seen OHC engines in '83 models, that said, i've seen CIH 2.2 in '89 models.. so i don't know, unless the guys post pics of their engine bays, there's no way to tell, and they're not going to know what the hell you're talking about... were the 2.0 CIH fuel injection? Need my dose of Manta. Delta seemed to make things difficult for us engine wise. The 2.2 was available until they stopped selling it, which was much later than the rest of the world. I seem to remember reading that they offered a conversion from CIH to OHC, which would explain why early ones have them. Then they spoilt us with the Irmscher Special (OHC) and the delightful 380GSI. E1 Rekord's are probably your best bet. The Chev badged Rekords used some chev engine as far as I know, but they might be worth looking at, maybe you will get lucky. The one I saw was injected... PS. Can you access the SA Opel Owners Club forum? It has apparently disappeared from the internet, again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monzta Posted October 21, 2012 Share Posted October 21, 2012 On the two pictures you can see a long gasket (not the round one). This is to put between the head and the thermostate housing. Also if you look at the 2 thermostate housings you will see 2 holes in the 2,2 one but 3 on the 1,9 one. The thing is that the holes that are the most further apart is the ones you use for mounting. So they will never fit, the 2,2 one is alot smaller than the 1,9 one and the head is of course machined to fit. If you try to put a 1,9 thermostate housing on a 2,2 you will be able to fit 1 bolt and that will be that. By the way LEIDINGER who sells theese bad boys dont grap an arm and a leg selling theese bad boys. The one for 2,2 and 2,4 is only 70 Euro ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stev0 Posted October 22, 2012 Author Share Posted October 22, 2012 Delta seemed to make things difficult for us engine wise. The 2.2 was available until they stopped selling it, which was much later than the rest of the world. I seem to remember reading that they offered a conversion from CIH to OHC, which would explain why early ones have them. Then they spoilt us with the Irmscher Special (OHC) and the delightful 380GSI. PS. Can you access the SA Opel Owners Club forum? It has apparently disappeared from the internet, again. Yeah it seems delta did their own thing hey... looks like South Africa's models lasted alot longer on the market than the rest of the world, which affords us the luxury of getting face-lifts and special editions... that 380 motor is strictly speaking not an "opel" motor, it's some isuzu creation if memory serves me right. the opelownersforum is down for now, the sever domain belongs to Animosity, who's in Germany right now.. GerryD is trying to transfer everything over onto his own server but he can't get hold of Ani for now.. On the two pictures you can see a long gasket (not the round one). This is to put between the head and the thermostate housing. Also if you look at the 2 thermostate housings you will see 2 holes in the 2,2 one but 3 on the 1,9 one. The thing is that the holes that are the most further apart is the ones you use for mounting. So they will never fit, the 2,2 one is alot smaller than the 1,9 one and the head is of course machined to fit. If you try to put a 1,9 thermostate housing on a 2,2 you will be able to fit 1 bolt and that will be that. By the way LEIDINGER who sells theese bad boys dont grap an arm and a leg selling theese bad boys. The one for 2,2 and 2,4 is only 70 Euro ! only 70euro?? i'll take 5! but if i plan on using the entire complete 2.2 engine, block, head and thermostat housing, what would the problem be then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monzta Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 The problem is that the thermostate housing cannot be there in its original shape if you mount twin carbs. Also the thermostate housing has 3 big outlets for coolant and you only need one when running carbs. If you use your 1,9 engine you will not have this issue. But as said, 70 Euros at Leidinger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stev0 Posted October 22, 2012 Author Share Posted October 22, 2012 ahhh okay thats what i was wondering... so the original thermostat fouls on the carb intakes?? that makes more sense now... the other ports can just be blanked off right? ideally i'll like to order parts already suited to the task, but i'll probably end up modifying my own... as for the intakes, i'll end up building my own for that too... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moodoo Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 Hey Moodo Have you tried Enem for pistons? http://www.enem.se/ the website is not that good but i dropped them an email and Jan there is very helpful, might be worth a try? No, I never thought, but I will send an email, thanks for the tip! No worries moodoo, i spoke to a chap who owns a workshop, he says getting 95 replacement pistons is easy as pie, it's getting the offset between the gudgeon pin and the top right, if you're still looking by the time i get to that part of my build i'll let you know.. I'm definitely not going to have custom pistons made, i'm literally going to take a 2.2 piston in hand and dig around until i find something to suite.. The pin height on the 2.2 pistons is a really 'funny' dimension, it means a lot of other potentially good pistons won't work. I've been trawling the net for months looking up piston specs, but can't find any piston an exact match. A few could work, but will need the small end of the opel rod opening up, a few mm taken off the top of the piston, and valve reliefs cut in. That's too many custom jobs to go wrong in my book! This is all considering using the standard Opel rods, I definitely am not going down the road of different rods as well...it just all gets too messy for my liking. I would rather give a piston manufacturer one of mine to copy, and then the responsibility is theirs. Anyway, I'll let you know how I get on. Cheers, Fin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stev0 Posted October 22, 2012 Author Share Posted October 22, 2012 i hear you... it's going to be missions if you want to customise the pistons, so why not just go with a shorter rod to accomodate the change of gudgeon pin to piston-top length? if memory serves the standard rods are 134mm, can anybody confirm? it would be interesting to see what combination of piston - rod - big end you'd need to achieve the correct setup.. if the gudgeon pin on the std 2.2 piston sits say 10mm higher than piston 'x' which you intend to use, you just have to find 10mm shorter rods, so in this case it would be 124mm... easier said than done, as there are more elements to consider such as bearing widths etc differ but with enough connections i'm sure one could source all parts to get that perfect setup.. I'm not scared of combining brands for internals, I had an OHC motor which ran with BMW rods with unknown pistons, worked perfectly.. moodoo what sort of price are you looking at for fully customed pistons? I haven't even asked around, maybe there are new 2.2 replacement pistons still in circulation, South Africa hasn't gone over to scrappage schemes and all that BS yet so there's still a huge market for the older stuff.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moodoo Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 Stev0 - standard rods are 128mm, only the 2.4 rods were 134mm. As far as I know the 2.4 rods may not even be a straight fit onto the 2.2 crank, think the 2.4s had different bearings...but I could be wrong. On the opelgt forum they have used Ford rods and bearings...but thats going bit beyond my level!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stev0 Posted October 22, 2012 Author Share Posted October 22, 2012 hey moodoo, thanks for the info... it will be very helpful!! i see the throw of the crank of the 1.9 vs 2.2 is 34.9mm to 38.75mm (half of the stroke)... now these figures are purely circumstancial, based on assumptions and can only be confirmed with hardware in hand but it means that: - the gudgeon pin on the 2.2 piston will sit roughly 3.85mm closer to the piston top than the 1.9 and 2.0.. - using 2.0 piston would require a rod of similar bearing sizes and width but length of 124mm (125mm if you want to bump the compression a bit ).. in my opinion you could choose from any 95mm 8v piston, check it's gudgeon pin offset to that of the 2.2 and get rods to suite.. i suspect a set of standard rods (from wherever) and pistons would be cheaper than custom pistons, but i ask again, have you been quoted on a set of custom-made pistons from the states? do you have a price? maybe it's not worth the effort of matching rods and pistons and maybe the best way is to simply have custom pistons made.. let me know Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
611 Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 ahhh okay thats what i was wondering... so the original thermostat fouls on the carb intakes?? that makes more sense now... the other ports can just be blanked off right? ideally i'll like to order parts already suited to the task, but i'll probably end up modifying my own... as for the intakes, i'll end up building my own for that too... He steve, check out the links i put up of the thermostat and then you wll see what Monzta means about the pipes fouling and that you need to open up/add an putlet for the heater rad return. Andy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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