mantapaperman Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 hiya..lowered me gte coupe about 35mm i think the spring box says?..anyway the front bump stop 'inside the spring' looks very close to bottoming on the bottom arm? anyone got the same rig? there is a small amount of flex when i bounce it up and down, and it is very stiff..i have bilstein shocks on..any info would be great.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casper1483 Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 Heyup mate I've slammed mine abit but lukes your man (399road) he's got an ascona that's on it's arse I'm sure he'll help ....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mantapaperman Posted May 12, 2011 Author Share Posted May 12, 2011 cheers bud Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monzta Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 I have had several lowered manta´s and i have never had any problems with the bump stop with 40-60mm springs. I had one that i lowered 80/100mm from KAW and with those springs i had to shorten the bump stop. Maybe your bump stops has been replaced at some point and welded in lower than original ?? Sounds strange that you have this issue with 35mm springs ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickappy Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 mines dropped 60mm and is ok. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mantapaperman Posted May 12, 2011 Author Share Posted May 12, 2011 summat doesnt sound right ere..when i got the car it was sposed to be down 35mm..recently stripped and renovated front cross member bla bla, bought some new spring off the ebay which are sposed to be 35mm down,it does seem to sit lower at front than the back slightly..and looking at front springs it has about 3 bottom coils sat on each other when on ground..does that sound normal? i've also poly bushed it up front and was wondering will it need to be tracked up as standard? cheers for the info chaps Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monzta Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 Aha! I know whats wrong You have put the front springs in rear, and the rear ones in front. Thats a typical thing to do, i´ve done that like 100 times too The rear ones are softer than the front ones and that is why the front sits low and the rear doesn´t Alot of springs come from Germany and if the producer has been nice they will often have marked the springs with letters: "HA" and "VA" VA stands for Vorderachse (front axle) and HA stands for Hinterachse (rear axle)., But not all brands has this and that is when things become difficult Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mantapaperman Posted May 12, 2011 Author Share Posted May 12, 2011 bugger....i just put the new ones back as i took the old out! so if the old ones were fitted wrong ..will have to investigate further..whats the differance then? the amount of coils etc? any advise on tracking? thanks for replys Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2908642343 Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 (edited) Yep, mine is lowered by - 40mm running on Spax PSX. All suspension is polybushed and running on 195 50 15 inch ATS Classixs. Sticks to the road like glue. Edited May 12, 2011 by 2908642343 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monzta Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 (edited) bugger....i just put the new ones back as i took the old out! so if the old ones were fitted wrong ..will have to investigate further..whats the differance then? the amount of coils etc? any advise on tracking? thanks for replys Tracking will propably be a good idea when you have changed the bushings, and are lowering the car. Regarding the springs i believe that on the front springs you will have more coils. Otherwise the steel will have more stiffness in front, but thats unlikely. But as i said check the springs for those HA and VA markings. They should be there, and are propably the same place as the serial number. You should also line the springs up and see wich ones are the longest. Those are the front springs. Edited May 12, 2011 by monzta Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daverwd Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 Just lowered my manta by 30mm , Got the springs from AVO , as suggested by Monzta in a previous topic.. The springs were stamped F and R .. the fronts stamped F were taller & a slightly narrower diameter than the rears .. On putting in the fronts & putting the car back on the ground the car now sits flat so i dont think i will put the rears in .. Before changing the springs my manta was a little nose high( even with the c20xe sitting under the bonnet )compared with the rear so just lowering the front seems to have given me the look i was looking for .. its not a massive drop but has helped with the appearence of the car & still leaves me with a reasonable ride for a road car.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mantapaperman Posted May 18, 2011 Author Share Posted May 18, 2011 thanks for the input guys...yep they are fitted correct F up front and R at the back..local tyre centre wont touch the tracking cos its lowered and they have no info on their system!!!!!! i took the bloody manual to show them aswell.....TW**S... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lamchop77 Posted May 18, 2011 Share Posted May 18, 2011 thanks for the input guys...yep they are fitted correct F up front and R at the back..local tyre centre wont touch the tracking cos its lowered and they have no info on their system!!!!!! i took the bloody manual to show them aswell.....TW**S... Just use a tape measure between the front edges of the rims and the rear edge of the rims, subtract on e from the other divide by 2 and that'll give you your track in or out depending on which is the larger measurement. Used to set mine dead parallel and had no probs. Biggest issue will be the negative camber if your too low, that will wear the inside of the tyre. I just turned the top ball joints to give more positive camber, mine was 60mm lower and the wear was not bad, maybe 1mm more on the inside edge than the outer. Guy at the tyre placesaid some modern motors are way worse. HTH Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monzta Posted May 18, 2011 Share Posted May 18, 2011 It all sounds very strange. A 30mm lowering is of course not much, its just over an inch. I guess its possible that the cars original springs has settled a bit during the years, but i still think it sounds very strange indeed... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
399Road Posted May 18, 2011 Share Posted May 18, 2011 (edited) Mantapaperman, I've had a couple of lowered Mantas/ Asconas. I think you used to be able to get springs for either 1800 cars or the heavier Engined CIH powered Mantas. The first time I lowered my old GTE, I ordered 400lb front springs that sounded as if they would be rock hard, but were too soft and bottomed out all the time. The second set I tried were rated at 600lbs and were just right. This second set of springs never bottomed out on those rubber bump stops. I tried to correct the negative camber by swapping the top ball joints around and retracking and the car just understeered like mad. On my latest car I'm running really low springs but have a lighter 16 valve engine fitted. These springs are Jamex and I have Bilstein shockers. I've tracked this car in a different way to normal and it's made it handle and turn in better and has stopped uneven tyre wear. If you take your car to somewhere like Kwik fit then their bonus is topped up by tracking cars up so they'll be mad to turn you away. Make sure you stand with your car as it's tracked up or they'll probably just rattle a spanner underneath your car and not adjust anything. The best time to try Kwik fit is on a Sunday afternoon as they'll be quiet and not rushed to get on with the next car. If you get them to fit the tracking gauges and then pull down on your front anti roll bar, look to see if your front wheels toe in or out when weighted from underneath. A standard Manta's front wheels will toe out as you pull down on the roll bar. As you drive down the road, downforce shoves the front of your car down, closer to the road and pulling down on the roll bar whilst watching which way the front wheels go on the tracking gauges simulates this downforce roughly.The standard Manta's steering rack ends come out of the rack and slope downhill towards the track rod ends. As your car weights up with downforce these steering arms will level up and toe the front wheels out at they shove the front of your hubs outwards. Now on a lowered Manta, these steering rack ends may already be level or even slope upwards towards the track rod ends so as your car weights up again these arms will pull in, ever so slightly and toe your front wheels in instead of out. This is why I've set my really low Asconas tracking to toe OUT 2mm instead of the manual's toe in setting of 2mm. I'd say to set it to 1mm toe out if your steering rack ends are level with the road before pulling on the anti roll bar or set it to 2mm of toe OUT if the steering rack ends slope up to the track rod ends. What you're looking for, once tracked correctly, is the front wheels to be parallel with each other whilst somebody is pulling down on the anti roll bar. If you're now sat reading this with both hands pointing at the screen and steering your hands in and out to represent your front wheels, then you'll probably get what I'm on about. So to summarise the above.... look under your car without any weight being applied to it. If your steering rack ends slope downhill to the track rod ends..... Set to toe in 2mm (or plus 2.) If your steering rack ends are level with the road..... Set to toe out 1mm (or minus 1) If your steering rack ends slope uphill towards the track rod ends..... Set to toe out 2mm (or minus 2.) This set up has worked perfectly on my Mantas and Ascona.... I hope this helps..... Luke. Edited May 18, 2011 by 399Road Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manta88 Posted May 19, 2011 Share Posted May 19, 2011 Very interesting Luke , i will be under my car with the tape measure tomorrow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
399Road Posted May 19, 2011 Share Posted May 19, 2011 Mick, If you run your car down to the Formula One autocentre in Wigston and tell them to track it to parallel whilst the car is weighted up with somebody pulling down on the roll bar , they'll know what you're on about. Tell them your mate Luke is the MOT tester at their Chesterfield centre. Formula One's training centre is based at this garage and it's here where I was shown to track cars up like this. Luke. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retro Power Posted May 19, 2011 Share Posted May 19, 2011 All a big can of worms, and depends on how technical you want to get. Certainly a tyre and tracking centre will be at the non-technical end of the spectrum!! There is no reason they should take issue with setting tracking because a car is lowered. What is an issue, and what 399road is referring to, is bump steer. lowering a car can cause excessive bump steer due to the fact that the manufacturers original setup was not zero bump steer (none are) and the bump steer was a minimal average over the typical suspension travel as envisaged by the manufacturer, but lowering the car has pushed the suspension to one "end" of the travel envelope, which has swung the bump steer from an average across the travel to a heavy + or - bias, I.e. Biased to toe in or out over the typically used travel. What 399road is saying is that biasing your static toe setting can somewhat offset the bump steer problem, but really the way to fix it is to raise the steering rack, however that's not a five minute job!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mantapaperman Posted May 20, 2011 Author Share Posted May 20, 2011 hi..just got back for a local ''backstreet'' establishment..tracked up per manual figures..thanks very much everyone especially 399road..i printed of what you said and showed the mechanic,who did agree but only set it up at normal height, as he said it shouldnt thro it too far out? anyway it doesnt seem to feel any differant. but he did say call back tomoro afternoon if i want to have it tickled further..soooo i will have a rag about thisaft to get a good feel then go back and see if he'll let me swing on the roll bar! to be continued! thanks so much again to all! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manta88 Posted May 20, 2011 Share Posted May 20, 2011 (edited) 399Road Posted Yesterday, 10:08 PM Mick, If you run your car down to the Formula One autocentre in Wigston and tell them to track it to parallel whilst the car is weighted up with somebody pulling down on the roll bar , they'll know what you're on about. Tell them your mate Luke is the MOT tester at their Chesterfield centre. Formula One's training centre is based at this garage and it's here where I was shown to track cars up like this. Luke Thanks Luke ,that garage is just up the road from me, i will give them ago. Sorry to change the subject of this topic. I went to that Formula 1 centre about 2 years ago for a new spare tyre for the Manta,handed over the keys so they could get the spare out ,the lad came over and said do you mind if i take a photo on my phone of your car ,i said no problem i will pop the bonnet if you are interested, then all the mechanics who were working on other customers cars left what they were doing and came out for a look leaving all there customers wondering what was going on with there cars. Well nothing got done for 15 min's tell i left with me new tyre. :D Edited May 20, 2011 by manta88 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Abbott Posted May 20, 2011 Share Posted May 20, 2011 Mantapaperman, I've had a couple of lowered Mantas/ Asconas. I think you used to be able to get springs for either 1800 cars or the heavier Engined CIH powered Mantas. The first time I lowered my old GTE, I ordered 400lb front springs that sounded as if they would be rock hard, but were too soft and bottomed out all the time. The second set I tried were rated at 600lbs and were just right. This second set of springs never bottomed out on those rubber bump stops. I tried to correct the negative camber by swapping the top ball joints around and retracking and the car just understeered like mad. On my latest car I'm running really low springs but have a lighter 16 valve engine fitted. These springs are Jamex and I have Bilstein shockers. I've tracked this car in a different way to normal and it's made it handle and turn in better and has stopped uneven tyre wear. If you take your car to somewhere like Kwik fit then their bonus is topped up by tracking cars up so they'll be mad to turn you away. Make sure you stand with your car as it's tracked up or they'll probably just rattle a spanner underneath your car and not adjust anything. The best time to try Kwik fit is on a Sunday afternoon as they'll be quiet and not rushed to get on with the next car. If you get them to fit the tracking gauges and then pull down on your front anti roll bar, look to see if your front wheels toe in or out when weighted from underneath. A standard Manta's front wheels will toe out as you pull down on the roll bar. As you drive down the road, downforce shoves the front of your car down, closer to the road and pulling down on the roll bar whilst watching which way the front wheels go on the tracking gauges simulates this downforce roughly.The standard Manta's steering rack ends come out of the rack and slope downhill towards the track rod ends. As your car weights up with downforce these steering arms will level up and toe the front wheels out at they shove the front of your hubs outwards. Now on a lowered Manta, these steering rack ends may already be level or even slope upwards towards the track rod ends so as your car weights up again these arms will pull in, ever so slightly and toe your front wheels in instead of out. This is why I've set my really low Asconas tracking to toe OUT 2mm instead of the manual's toe in setting of 2mm. I'd say to set it to 1mm toe out if your steering rack ends are level with the road before pulling on the anti roll bar or set it to 2mm of toe OUT if the steering rack ends slope up to the track rod ends. What you're looking for, once tracked correctly, is the front wheels to be parallel with each other whilst somebody is pulling down on the anti roll bar. If you're now sat reading this with both hands pointing at the screen and steering your hands in and out to represent your front wheels, then you'll probably get what I'm on about. So to summarise the above.... look under your car without any weight being applied to it. If your steering rack ends slope downhill to the track rod ends..... Set to toe in 2mm (or plus 2.) If your steering rack ends are level with the road..... Set to toe out 1mm (or minus 1) If your steering rack ends slope uphill towards the track rod ends..... Set to toe out 2mm (or minus 2.) This set up has worked perfectly on my Mantas and Ascona.... I hope this helps..... Luke. Great post Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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