Cih Engine Build Questions

[moodoo]

Couple of questions regarding CIH engine build..I will have more I'm sure, but just these for now!

1) Are new rod bolts and/or main crank cap bolts available?

2) Are the torque figures in the Haynes manuals for the bolts above, correct?

3) Should I put sealant on the sump gasket and the timing cover gasket, or rely on gasket alone?

Thanks!

Fin

[rutts]

on all gaskets I use wellseal

even headgaskets

[611]

Hey Fin

A couple spring to mind that might have or be able to get them

http://www.vauxhall-car-parts.co.uk/ (they can get bits not listed on the site but you might need part numbers)

http://www.risse-motorsport.de/index.php/cat/c497_Small-parts-for-carcass---engine-block.html (might need another bonus to cover the cost :-)

http://enem.se (worth a try)

i have the workshop manual and can scan the engine torque settings for you.

and i would use sealant on the sump, not used it on the front cover so will have to see how that goes when i fill her up :-)

Andy

[lamchop77]

Fin

Rod bolts aren't available, risse list but don't stock them anymore. Torque rating was between 32/36 ft/lb. Can't rememeber the thread for the mains but i think they could be standard m12, if they are you could replace with cap head 12.9 spec bolts. Torque to 72 ft/lbs for 1.9/2.0 and list 81ft/lb for 2.2/2.4. I have always reused the bolts and had no probs. Haynes was ok for torque ratings.

I use blue hylomar with gaskets or decent silicone sealant on its own thats ok for use with oil.

One thing 1.9/2.0 bolts can be re-used 2.2/2.4 are stretch bolts so don't re-use. I replaced mine with m12 fine cap head bolts, i can get them but have to buy 10 of each size at a time, so its 2 engine sets. Last sets worked out at about £35 per engine. Stretch ones were £28 at the time.

HTH

Chris

[moodoo]

Thanks (as always) Chris and Andy.

OK, so the torque figures in the manuals are OK, that's good to know. (The reason I ask is that I know I read somewhere on OpelGt that RallyBob used higher torque figures than stock for the rod bolts. But then again he's always building much higher spec motors than what I'm outting together!).

Are those torque figures for lubricated or unlubricated threads do we know? Opinion seems to be split on using threadlocker or not on rod bolts, but on the ARP site they say you can use threadlocker or thread lube, so I was thinking of using threadlocker, prob Loctite 242.

The higher torque figure for the 2.2 main caps - I am building my 2.2 into a bored 1.9 - will the higher torque figure be OK for my (1.9) main cap bolts, or were the 2.2 main cap bolts stronger? Any specific torquing sequence for the main caps, other than work from the centre out?

I'll be using Loctite 5910 for sealing duties, just wasn't sure whether to use it as well as the gaskets, but sounds like defo should use both on the sump at least.

Your last point Chris, I presume you're talking about head bolts there? I'm building my 2.2 into a bored 1.9 block, with a big-valve 2.0 head (thanks Andy!), and the bolts I have are 1.9. So I can just buy 'ordinary' (non-stretch) bolts as replacement? Probably 12.9 grade?

Thanks, and sorry for the million questions!

Fin

[lamchop77]

Fin

The torque figures are usually for a lightly oiled but clean thread. I have used thread locker on the conrod and main bolts for the race motors with no probs. I torque to the highest setting for mains 81ft/lb and usually a couple of ft/lbs more on the conrod bolts, only on std ones though, if ARPs are fitted they need to be torqued exactly. If your bothered about using loctite do a test, torque a bolt up dry and one with loctite, leave it 20 mins then go back and retorque see if anything changes. Then torque to loosen each bolt and see when each one actually moves at. The main thing to do though is clean out all the threads and holes and i mean clean. If any oil is left in then it can hydraulic up and give you a false torque reading.

The blocks are all basically the same so torquing to the higher figure should be no problem. I was talking about headbolts, your 1.9/2.0 will be fine to re-use i wouldnt bother replacing for the tune of your engine. Also checked the main crank bolts and they are M12 std pitch in 12.9 spec so you could replace but they are a good bolt. As for torqueing up i go OTT with it and go up in increments of 10 and leave settling time between, just a minute or so and turn the crank regularly to check for binding.

HTH

Chris

[moodoo]

Great, thanks for the info Chris. Sounds like my existing bolts should all be OK. I started my build from a rebuilt 1.9 bottom end I bought, that was unused since it had been rebuilt God knows how many years ago. So am pretty sure all the hardware should be in good nick.

Wasn't sure on the loctite, in work here we design industrial machinery, and we spec loctite on pretty much everything, hence my question. As you say, I can test it and see.

Your torquing procedure sounds good, will go with that.

New bearings arrive tomorrow hopefully...let the building commence..!

[GTEPETE]

Make sure you use a tap to clean the threads for head bolts in the block to ensure proper torque setting, on the first build of my turbo block many years ago one bolt jammed up and broke in the block under torque...

[moodoo]

Gents..am back again...

Engine build was delayed due to life getting in the way! When I went to start over Christmas, I made an unhappy discovery, and would like your advice.

The 2.2 crank I bought, I brought it to a 'good' engine builders. I told them to check it, if it needed a grind, to do so, and if not, to just give it a polish. They said it only needed a polish, so I took them at their word, and thought no more of it. When I eventually got round to putting the crank in, I used some plastiguage to check bearing clearances, just for piece of mind. Glad I did. Turned out that the clearances ranged from 'just about OK' to 'too big', at between 0.063 and 0.076. (The Opel FSM I have lists main clearance 0.023 to 0.064, and rods 0.015 to 0.061.)

Went and got the crank measured at a precision engineering company, and found that main journals are up to 0.030 undersize, and rods 0.050 undersize.

Now I'm pretty sure I know the answer, but does anyone think I can use the crank the way it is, or do I need to have the crank ground down? What clearances do any of you guys who have built CIHs before aim for? I only want to build this engine once, so I want to try do it right first time....

[lamchop77]

Fin

Undersize bearings are available 0.025, 0.050 and 0.075 undersize. Looks like you just need the mains grinding to 0.050 undersize. Some of the cranks i have that were out of untouched engines were undersize from new so its no big deal. Also if the mains are being ground you need to check the size for the thrust, the big rear bearing as they come at an increased width so that will need doing as well.

HTH

Chris

[moodoo]

Thanks Chris.

(Possibly) stupid question...have you one too many '0's in there? I can find plenty of places selling bearings 0.25, 0.50 and 0.75 undersize, but not in 0.025, 0.050 and 0.075?

I was under the impression I would needs rods and mains grinding down 0.25mm?

Fin

[lamchop77]

Fin

Yep your right!!! Still working in thou's from spending too much time faffing with a 1275 a series for the moggy minor i have!!!

I always leave the measuring to the guy i use as he uses calibrated micrometers which i only have access to at work. Check the haynes manual and if there out by they are out by even the slightest amount get them reground.

Chris

[moodoo]

Thanks Chris...I thought that there might have been a mm vs inches thing going on alright! The 2nd machine shop I brought the crank to used calibrated micrometers, so I'm happy that his mesurements are OK...but not so happy that I need to get the crank reground! Still, better to have found this out now, than after the engines in the car..

[moodoo]

Back again...pretty simple question I think, but I haven't built one of these engines before, so I've no point of reference....

Went to put the front pulley on last night...

The 2.2 crank I bought had the front pulley bolt screwed into the end. It also had 3 washers: a flat washer, a wavy washer and a thick (maybe 7-8mm) 'washer'. Only thing is I can't figure out how the flat washer fits, since it's very slightly too big to sit into the front pulley recess? The wavy washer is the right size to sit into the recess in the pulley, and I'm pretty sure that would be followed by the thick washer.

So it would be: Distributor drive gear - front pulley - wavy washer - thick washer - bolt.

Both the Haynes manual and the FSM only show one washer, no mention of a wavy washer at all??

(The front pulley I'm using now is the one that came with the disassembled 1.9 engine I'm rebuilding into 2.2, so maybe the crank pulley on the 2.2 was vey slightly different, and that flat washer fitted into somehow?)

Thanks in advance for any help....

[cam.in.head]

Yeah the 2.2 pulley is a dual mass unit whereas your 1.9one will be a std pressed steel unit.just use what fits right.the original 1.9washer from memory is a smaller /thinner washer than on a 2.2so just make sure it fits nice and flat so you don't have any oil seepage down the middle !

[moodoo]

Hi again all...

 

In my continuing quest to break the world record for the worlds slowest CIH build...

 

2 (similar) questions..

 

1) The sump gasket set I have has got cork gaskets. Do I use additional sealant (ie. Loctite 5910/5980) on those, and if so, should I use on one side only, or both sides?

 

2) Headgasket - should I use sealant on this in the area where it is sealing to the top of the front cover? I've seen reference to doing this (especially on opelgt.com), but maybe it's really only needed on the 10-bolt heads, since they have no bolts going from head into timing cover? Mine has the 2 extra bolts.

 

Thanks in advance as always...

Fin