Clutch Pivot Adjustment Again!

[Ems]

I've got a C20XE with flat flywheel and Manta 5 speed box.  I've had an uprated clutch made for it.  

I've set the bellhousing to fork gap to 109mm without a cable fitted.  The cable end needs a lot of adjustment to get the pedal to the correct height.

Is this the correct method, it's been a long time since I fitted a clutch.

Reading some of the older posts, should the fork to bellhousing gap be bigger as the C20XE has a larger diameter?

Any advice will be welcome

Thanks

 

Edited September 11, 2022 by Ems

[Jessopia74]

When you say updated clutch, do you know if the fingers are as per OEM specification or the ring position (fulcrum point) 8s moved to give longer pedal to help overcome the extra clamping force from the stronger spring?  

[Ems]

I've finally got the rest of the car back together so It's time to adjust the clutch.

The clutch plate is only slightly uprated so won't need much more pressure than the standard one.

I've added a couple of washers to the cable, before it goes through the bellhousing as it was with the old clutch.  

With the pedal at maximum height, I still can't select any gears.  Should I add more washers or adjust the fork.

Thank you

[cam.in.head]

always adjust the fork first. the stock adjustment means that the lever is not up against its slot in the bellhousing when released and wont touch the other side when fully depressed.

as the clutch wears ( or beds in / same thing realy !) the fork moves further backwards and if left to its own devices will become tight up against the edge. so theoretically as long as its adjusted to spec and is clear of the edge there should be no issues fork wise.

stock adjustment is as you say 109mm from just on the bellhousing edge to just wrapped around the fork.

then

adjusting the cable (washers if required but i personally always fit a couple at the gearbox end anyway.   should give the required movement.  obviously if its a non standard clutch in any way the standard measurements MAY not be correct .

if you cannot get it to release even by adjusting the cable to max height (i usually aim for level) and tweaking the fork rearwards a smidgen means an actual clutch issue/problem.

clutch discs especially when new have sprung steel between the actual faces to enable a smooth take up .if extreme this can cause issues .as the discs expands too much .

other issues could be ......disc in wrong way round ( this would cause no gear engagement or clunks as it hits the flywheel bolts).......tightness on splines........fork not in release bearing groove.(should be realy obvious).

[rutlish]

I have my 20xe fork set to 120mm, from front of fork to back of bellhousing. This is for 9" clutch, Hope this helps.🙂

[Ems]

Thanks, I'll try that tomorrow.

[cam.in.head]

that will definately allow for more travel. providing threres a clearance all should be ok.

the stock 109 mm adjustment allows that clearance to be more and would also help some owners who dont check the adjustment when they service it.

[Ems]

I set the gap to 120mm and adjusted the cable until I could select the gears, the pedal is now at the correct height.    After driving a couple of miles, I had trouble selecting reverse.  Something is still wrong as I can smell fumes from the clutch.

I've got all the washers, etc for the bulkhead and I'm using a 1.8 cable - it's quite old could it have stretched?

Thank you.

 

[cam.in.head]

silly question .bear with me . !

Is the engine earth  cable present and correct ?

if this is broken,missing or a bad connection can cause starter motor current to find its way through other means such as clutch,acc,speedo cable with obvious bad results.

otherwise check clutch fork is not now binding up against bellhousing slot and has some free rearward movement left.

[Ems]

I've got one earth from the gearbox bellhousing to the chassis on the driver's side and one from the block to the cross-member mounting bolt on the passenger side.

All the testing is made more fun as the battery is not holding a full charge or the starter is playing up, something else to look at over the weekend.

[cam.in.head]

sounds like you are earthed ok then but no harm double checking especially as you are having starter related symptoms which a bad earth would give !. on the standard setup with the earth braid across from the block under the manifolds and to the chassis they frequently gave trouble by bad connection or rotting cable .

[Ems]

Raised the back of the car on axle stands today, with 120mm fork to bellhousing distance a couple of washers at the gearbox bellhousing and the pedal at the correct height I managed to select first gear, but the biting point was very low.  When the car was in gear with the clutch pedal pressed to the floor the wheels were still turning.

Adjusted it again and couldn't get any gears.  I left the car idling and did many adjustments even going back to 109mm but couldn't get gears again. 

I've now changed the clutch cable added more washers and could get first gear, but the wheels start turning before you release the pedal.  The bite point is very low, and the pedal is set near maximum height.  The fork to bellhousing is now back at 120mm.

Surprisingly the car starts perfectly with the back of the car on axle stands.

I can't do more adjustments at the moment as I've run out of washers.

Hopefully I haven't wrecked my clutch and flywheel.

 

 

 

 

Edited October 1, 2022 by Ems

[cam.in.head]

i assume that you have got the damper block at the top of the cable ?

this would solve massive washer issues or extreme adjustments but the fact that you have got 120mm on the fork which is more than standard and still cannot get it to release fully even with a level pedal suggest something more internal with the clutch.

clutch fork adjustments aside .and cable adjustments aside it sounds like you havnt got enough movement to go from fully ENAGED to fully DISENGAGED. which sounds worrying.

100% check visibly throught the fork gap (bellhousing hole)that the release bearing is properly engaged into its pegs on the fork. cannot see how it would not be but try to be sure anyway for elimination purposes.

remeasure fork adjustment. (109mm is standard,120mm is better PROVIDING the fork is not hard up against the back of the hole/ bellhousing aperture.

cable (idealy) has the damping block at the top with its two rubbers ,large bulkhead washer and possibly an extra washer between end of cable and front rubber.

cable at bottom through bellhousing usually has a washer (mine have). 

cable is adjusted to give a level (or above) pedal height. (too low and you wont have enough travel,too high and you will either switch on the wear indicator light or pull the release fork tight up to the front of the hole(unlikely)

so theoretically the clutch should be fully engaged and some slack in the fork when pedal released and the clutch should be FULLY released plus extra when the pedal is all the way down.

if this isnt happenning then something internal is wrong. as i mentioned  before i have seen new discs with too much spread due to the internal wavy spring making the clutch disc too thick .this causes drag .but thats a manufacturing error which is very unlikely but i have seen it once.( on a recon disc) theres a name for this internal spring. i forget now but its there to give a nice smooth take up.

 

 

[Ems]

Thanks for your informative reply.

I've checked and I've got the complete damping block set up where the cable goes through the bulkhead.

I've removed all the washers as they didn't seem to make anu difference.  I tried 109mm again but couldn't get any gears.

I've now set the distance back to 120mm by adjusting the pivot bolt.  Using all available thread on the cable the pedal is now just below maximum height.

When I press the clutch pedal it makes a noise.  I can select gears with a slight effort, but the wheels are turning before I release the pedal.

The fork doesn't touch the sides of the hole with the pedal up or down.

The flywheel is clean and in good condition, the clutch is new, and I fitted a reconditioned gearbox.  Could there be a problem with the clutch fork?

I was hoping it would be a cable problem but looks like I'll have to remove everything again or get rid of the car!

 

 

 

 

[cam.in.head]

so sounds like ...even thou the pedal is moving the fork the required amount and you have no touching of the fork at both extremeties the movement is not enough to disenguage the disc. 

someone else here must have used this combination of flywheel ,disc,cover so hopefully someone may have an idea that we are missing ??

sounds to me like a lining wavy washer issue ,disc touching fywheel or something i cant quite put my finger on . i do keep mentioning the wavy washer issue as its happened to me once before. but not something you can realy see with it all in place .with the pedal pressed by someone you may be able to see the cover lifting and see if you can see the edge of the disc but i imagine it will be awkward .theoretically if you can see inside you should be able to see the cover lift and a gap appear. the disc should spin if you could get something in to touch it ?

sorry i cant be any more specific. something is stopping it disenguaging so unless anyone else does come along it may be a stripdown again ? 

at the end of the day. the cable pulls the arm (fork) and the fork pushes the bearing into the fingers to diseguage so theres not much to it realy . 

also . you mentioned about the electrical issue. ? ? ?  

[Ems]

Thanks for all your help, since I've had the back of the car up in the air the starting issue has gone!

[cam.in.head]

that doesnt make any sense. probably just coincidence.  

if it were mine i would be 100% making sure that the earth cables are definately ok .removing,cleaning and refitting them.

they wont cause a clutch problem as such but will make the clutch cable stretch and need constant adjusting .let alone other damage starter motor current flowing where it shouldnt will do !

other people must have used the same engine,flywheel,clutch,gearbox combo before so see what other replies pop up. 

hope i have been some help but running out of ideas now !

[Ems]

I can send the flywheel, clutch and fork back to the clutch manufacturer to get checked.  Just got to take the whole lot off again!

The earth points and earth lead for the driver's side were cleaned after I fitted the gearbox.  I'll do the other side next time.

I'll probably get a new c20xe starter as I'm not sure if the one fitted is for a Manta 1.8 which isn't as powerful.

 

 

[Ems]

I thought I'd update this post.  I got the clutch back and they'd added a spacer to the thrust bearing.  After assembling everything I adjusted the clutch pivot to get a distance of 120mm between the front of the gearbox and clutch fork.  I then attached the cable and the pedal it still at maximum height but I can get all the gears with no problems.

All was good for 3 miles then the clutch started making a noise when I pressed the pedal.  Now it makes a noise as soon as I start to press the pedal.  The lock nut on the pivot adjustment is still tight, I even removed the pedal box to check for any bends or cracks on the clutch pedal but all that is ok as well.

I've run out of ideas, maybe I'll just have to get another clutch and start again or sell the car and let someone else sort it out.

I fitted a new starter motor and battery, it now starts perfectly each time.

[rutts]

Don't know if it will help but ensure you have the correct cable fitted if using 1.8 gearbox. There are three different cables dictating the inner cable length. 

[Moonmonkey]

This may be completely left field but maybe another thing to check.

What happened on my rally car when I fitted a competition paddle clutch was that the threads on the clutch fork pivot partially stripped in the bellhousing probably due to the extra compression forces required on the uprated pressure plate.

It set up fine and all looked ok from outside, but in operation the pivot for the fork moved a bit giving poor clutch operation. Took a while to work out what was going on, and I put some of the poor shifting down to my driving🤣, so it only became clear when it failed completely with a bang.

There after I drilled out the bell housing and made a threaded steel insert with a flange on inside end and a nut on the outside to bolt through the bellhousing, so the clutch pivot thread was screwed into steel sleeve. Clutch worked fine and I didn’t misshift half as much.

It was on the a competition 4 speed Opel box rather than the getrag, so not sure if the pivot bolt location is better on the getrag.

 

[cam.in.head]

cant understand why a washer would be added behind the release bearing ?  adjusting the pivot bolt acheives the same thing and you have tried various settings too .

yes there are different cable variations but nothing that extra washers here and there wont make up for .if you get the pedal level correct then its correct .adding washers (although looks strange) acheives thesame thing. 

the standard adjustments and cables etc assume a standard clutch/cover and flywheel but yours is non standard so i dont see it being related to any sort of adjustment issue ? 

as you know. the basic operation ensures that with pedal pressed the clutch fingers lift the pressure plate enough to allow the disc to be fully released.with pedal released the pressure plate grips the disc and should allow some free play in the lever/cable afterwards. 

so 

if yours is engaging properly but not disengaging properly it does suggest an issue in which the standard setup doesnt allow enough disengagement movement. 

is it a snatchy/keen biting point of does it seem very smooth/gradual as you release the pedal ?   if so my money is still on the lining/ disc having too much springing between the 2 sides of lining. the aforementioned "wavy washer,spring"

ive had clutches where this spring gets totally flat .possibly due to heat over time and although the clutch will work absolutely fine it will be a very small transition between starting to bite and fully bitten. resulting in a very snappy clutch until you get used to it then its fine !

tother way round thou ,ive had new clutch plates where this spring is too "springy / expanded" and although this will give a very smooth gradual take up / biting point there can be issues where there isnt enough lever travel to actually fully disegage it . yours does sound like that but its not easy diagnosing over the internet without seeing whats actually in front of you . just trying to help with possible ideas.