Rattling on Accelerator push

[mepbowles]

Sorry for the basic question but at least it's in the right place.

I was about to pull onto the M4 today when I noticed a loud rattling as I went above about 40mph. I checked the oil and it seemed a little low so added a little more.

The oil level light has been coming on at slow speeds but I thought that was just the lack of a riser causing starvation issues.

I limped home including one stall without restart until it had cooled down. I also released some oil worrying it was over filled. I finally made it home and it's booked in at our local garage for Friday.

The transmission fluid was quite high but it hasn't been an issue. (It's an automatic).

Any suggestions for where they should start would be helpful. I assumed oil change and tappet adjustment but will bow to wiser minds.

 

tia

Edited July 12, 2023 by mepbowles

[®evo03]

Wrong dipstick ? 🤣

[mepbowles]

1 hour ago, ®evo03 said:

Wrong dipstick ? 🤣

Hey don't laugh 🤣😭, I pulled the right one at first and then noticed the automatic transmission fluid dipstick and wasn't in the right frame of mind to confirm that dexron was trans fluid.

Edited to correct the mistake. The reality is I'd love to tinker/learn more as it's something I'm interested in and I even took some automotive engineering modules at university. I just don't have the time to tinker/learn/experiment/fail with 2 under 2 and a house that needs rennovating 😔

Edited July 12, 2023 by mepbowles

[®evo03]

Oh, thought the engine had two dipsticks, believe me seen it before.

Well all I can say is you are in the right place for help guidance etc, plenty in here, could take them apart and put back together blind folded.

If you don't believe me, photograph a random part, piece, nut or bolt, and ask what it belongs too, 🤣🤣🤣

[Jessopia74]

If you have low oil pressure I am wondering if the camshaft followers are bleeding down, that would give a rattle from the top end. However, it could also be the timing chain/ tensioner too, but it’s going to need someone there at the engine who knows the CIH to diagnose this for you 

[Sutty2006]

I’d be checking the chain guides first, but it’s a fair old job if you’ve never done it before.

[cam.in.head]

and the light is a pressure light not a level light. if the switch is working correctly it should trigger approx below 5-7 psi .or as observed on the guage if it has one .

its not uncommon for the light to flicker on a hot engine at low idle speed  on an engine with some wear and tear,high mileage or worn parts but on a good engine with 20/50 in it you shouldnt see it drop below 2 bar at idle .maybee a tad lower of your using 40 grade oil such as 10w40 or 15w40.

if you remove the rocker cover to check anything its worth making sure one of the camshaft oil gallery plugs havnt come out. rare true but can happen. ive only seen it once ! ( small aproxx 8 mm dia plugs between some rocker studs.)

AND also. are we definately sure its a mechanical rattle.

after a long hot run (or a long spell in crawling traffic) the oil can get quite hot and vent through into the inlet manifold via a clogged mesh and this burning oil will cause a bad pinking under light acceleration .and lower the oil level too.

not many cars have had their breather mesh cleaned regularly over the years !

[cam.in.head]

also. and just in case you didnt know. sorry if you do !

engine oil level is checked as normal on a cold non running engine 

BUT 

auto fluid is check with a running engine in park.the auto dipstick has a mark for basic level on a cold engine ( around 20deg) but is best checked on a fully  warmed up engine after a run of 20 miles approx. the dipstick is markedaccordingly on each side .

[mepbowles]

I just called the garage for an update and they think it's the big end that's gone. 

I see my options as either:

1. Work away at the engine stripping it down over the coming months and do the work myself (with the realisation that I won't be able to empty my garage if needed and if I fail it'll have to be towed to a garage to fix). There is the benefit of being able to do some head work like unleaded conversion etc. and giving it the time and attention e.g. cleaning, painting etc.

 

2. Finding a replacement engine and dropping it in if good but likely giving it a strip down, clean and paint regardless.

 

Either way it looks like I'm facing a can of worms and likely a SORN declaration but

 

What you guys advise? I'm leaning towards keeping with the original as I was planning to give it a rebuild at some point so why not now. But I do have a few questions that will help me decide.

 

A. Can I replace the big end bearings by dropping the sump and crankshaft etc without a full strip down. From the Haynes manual it looks possible.

B. Is there anything else you'd advise replacing while I'm replacing the bearings or that will likely also be worn?

C. I assume the bearings are the same across the 1.6,1.9,2.0 with only the displacement being different 

D. I was also told that the 1.6 and 1.9 engines were slightly better runners than the 2.0 despite the smaller displacement.

E. Is this the right part? Annoying how such a cheap part requires so much work to get to https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/253550496097?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=lcFBSutlT6G&sssrc=4429486&ssuid=9EFZZfQBRHS&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

F. Do you need all the special tools listed or are they more common these days?

 

Edited July 19, 2023 by mepbowles

[cam.in.head]

the big end bearings CAN be replaced by just dropping the sump but you need to lift the engine and lower the crossmember to get it off. then it depends on wether the actual crank journals are ok. if the shells are gone then theres a good chance then journals will be too .( you may be lucky ??)

much easier realy to just remove the engine and strip it without the car in the way !

yes the bearings (and most of the internals) are common across the range (including the 2.5,2.8 and 3.0 6cyl)

no special tools required as such. all the lower nuts and bolts are normal hex head. cylinder head bolts and cam sprocket  are splines (not torx) and allen bolts at front.

if your engine is a good unit otherwise then i would keep and rebuild it but thats your choice.

[mepbowles]

Yeah, the garage mentioned a new crankshaft as a possibility but as you say, I might get lucky. There's at least on eBay but there may be others kicking about for less. Perhaps it's worth picking one up as a spare if it's cheap enough, though I don't imagine wanting to rebuild the engine for another 50k miles at least.

I knew I should have grabbed one of the free 2.0 engines that were being offered a couple of years ago!

It's a little leaky on oil so could do with new gaskets and seals and a cosmetic spruce up but it's run fairly well since I've owned it. I've been thinking about getting the engine out anyway to repaint the engine bay, maybe polybush and powder coat the running gear and re run the brakes etc etc etc. So perhaps it's a good thing. Though the can of worms will well and truly be opened for the front end. 

Edited July 19, 2023 by mepbowles

[Jessopia74]

48 minutes ago, mepbowles said:

Yeah, the garage mentioned a new crankshaft as a possibility but as you say, I might get lucky. There's at least on eBay but there may be others kicking about for less. Perhaps it's worth picking one up as a spare if it's cheap enough, though I don't imagine wanting to rebuild the engine for another 50k miles at least.

I knew I should have grabbed one of the free 2.0 engines that were being offered a couple of years ago!

It's a little leaky on oil so could do with new gaskets and seals and a cosmetic spruce up but it's run fairly well since I've owned it. I've been thinking about getting the engine out anyway to repaint the engine bay, maybe polybush and powder coat the running gear and re run the brakes etc etc etc. So perhaps it's a good thing. Though the can of worms will well and truly be opened for the front end. 

TBH, sounds like you are wanting a full rebuild tbh. Even buying a used running engine, you are not guaranteed to get 50k from that!

 

[mepbowles]

Sorry. I meant rebuilding it AGAIN for another 50k.

I'm coming around to a rebuild of my 1.9 slowly. If the used engine has done 60k then it'll be due a rebuild all too soon. I'm probably better off rebuilding it either way and it's probably better to work with something known than unknown. And for the purists it'll still be a 1.9 if I use what's there already 

Edited July 19, 2023 by mepbowles

[mepbowles]

Wow, a quick check on edelschmeide puts the cost of replacement seals etc at somewhere between £250 and £500 depending on how OTT I go.

That's before I even think about any block work.

Jeeeeeeezzzzz, this could escalate quickly!

I think it's worth looking through some of your build logs to see if I'm up to it mechanically and financially

Edited July 20, 2023 by mepbowles

[cam.in.head]

dont panic yet !

if you are doing the work yourself at home lets see what its all like once you get it apart. if you are lucky then it may only need a gasket set and some seals and shells. wether you do the rings and have the big ends reground depends on what you find.if the engine was running ok before and gave good compression although it would be a shame not to do rings and an unleaded conversion too whilst its apart. 

this is the engine that had low oil pressure ? yes .so it looks like it maybee been skimped on servicing in the past ? ? 

 

Edited July 20, 2023 by cam.in.head

[mepbowles]

Yeah, it's the classic "if a jobs worth doing, it's worth doing well". I don't mind spending money on it but I'm just trying to size up what a small medium and large option would look like. As you say, bare minimum is strip it and see and then just rebuild with new seals etc. Inevitably I'll use it as an excuse to do things like the brake lines and fuel lines. It's done 89k miles so I think it deserves it, I'm just trying to ease myself in gently. Hopefully the garage will give me a quote for the work to motivate me to do it myself.

It was running okay but it missed its service this year (blame the baby), so was due to go in shortly before it went. It only started having low oil pressure after long commutes to work but I'm hoping the limp home didn't do too much damage. Only one way to find out.

[mepbowles]

just got it back from the garage. They kindly didn't charge me for their diagnosis and reckoned on about 12 hours to strip and rebuild so about £1200 in labour with cost of seals, bearings and re-machining, plus potentially another engine. So £2000 easily.

I'd rather spend the £1200 on other things that need doing, though I may regret that.

 I thought I'd record a couple of videos for you to give your thoughts on. The tappets are alot less rattly now after we dumped a litre or so of oil in to get home but it still doesnt right and there's still a disturbing rattle on acceleration a (second video). There's a slim chance the garage don't deal with rattly tappets but doubtful. Either way, a second opinion won't harm anyway.

Engine idling them pushing in choke

https://youtube.com/shorts/Kuvjzap9xMc?feature=share

Tapping the throttle to hear the rattle

https://youtube.com/shorts/WTx4dWyuaA8?feature=share

 

 

Edited July 21, 2023 by mepbowles

[Jessopia74]

6 hours ago, mepbowles said:

just got it back from the garage. They kindly didn't charge me for their diagnosis and reckoned on about 12 hours to strip and rebuild so about £1200 in labour with cost of seals, bearings and re-machining, plus potentially another engine. So £2000 easily.

I'd rather spend the £1200 on other things that need doing, though I may regret that.

 I thought I'd record a couple of videos for you to give your thoughts on. The tappets are alot less rattly now after we dumped a litre or so of oil in to get home but it still doesnt right and there's still a disturbing rattle on acceleration a (second video). There's a slim chance the garage don't deal with rattly tappets but doubtful. Either way, a second opinion won't harm anyway.

 

Engine idling them pushing in choke

https://youtube.com/shorts/Kuvjzap9xMc?feature=share

Tapping the throttle to hear the rattle

https://youtube.com/shorts/WTx4dWyuaA8?feature=share

 

 

So not great news imo, as if the bottom end is losing oil pressure (highly likely based on the Mechanics assessment) that would explain the top end rattling as without oil pressure the hydraulic followers will rattle 

[cam.in.head]

idling sounds fine but yes there is a distinct bearing noise on blip.

very hard to tell 100% thou. you need a member nearby who knows  what they are listening for ? im up in west yorks so thats no good !

you will repair / rebuild the engine for alot less than £2000 even if it needs a crank. so dont worry too much. all part of the fun and you will be driving with an engine YOU built yourself. 

i would say .get a second opinion from someone and then take it from there. 

[cam.in.head]

hopefully if you get it out and stripped this weekend you will be able to assess whats needed better.look forward to hearing what you find .

[mepbowles]

Unfortunately it's probably going to have to wait until the end of August as we're going away and I need to clear space in the garage to store the car and engine bits which means finishing other tasks and selling dtuff