Engine Conversions

[Shug]

There was me thinking my 1.6 was only good for scrap.

Think I'll have to go rescue the crank and lifters before it gets weighed in!

[monzta]

You do that mate I think i scrapped 6 or 7 of theese engines before i discovered that they where in fact filled with gold

[Shug]

Oh, and the chain can break. Trust me

[monzta]

I know but that is not a common error. The head can also pop off, flywheel fly off and make like a discos in the car etc

By the way, for you CIH 8V fans in here, here´s a little something from youtube, you can´t beat the sound of a CIH it is exceptional!

[2908642343]

If you are going to balance a crank and flywheel you should at the same time add in the front pully and complete clutch as well.

Some might think this is slightly over kill but have to say it does make a difference.

Balanceing all the above is a waiste of time if you do not in my opinion, balance all the parts and CC the engine.

Now I will soon right up with pictures a build thread on a 2.4 that is almost completed the build process.

[monzta]

2908 you are right, but i would say (as you) that this is slight overkill for a mild tuned street car engine But absolutely if the possibility exist by all means do it that way, better safe than sorry

I have heard that some of the real hard core tuners like Uwe Gerent who is absolutely Mr CIH himself heat up the old cast iron blocks and then put them into some mixture of different elements of dirt and clay to remove tension from the dye cast blocks... But that guy is an extremist, he literally makes his own heads, and can take a 8V CIH head and make it crossflow !!!! :ph34r: :ph34r:

[2908642343]

Monzta;

Agreed a bit of overkill to do the balencing in this way....... A mild street engine it will be but will be smooth and quite and should deliver excellent performance effortlessley.

When decideing to do this build the idea was to build the engine once and once only, as parts are getting harder to find.

The 2.4 for all intense and purposes is new in that when new parts were available they have been used. So new Mahl 95 mm Pistons, skirts have been caoted and the tops have a ceramic coating, all done in the US, all bearings have been coated to. Block has been relined back to standard.

Will leave the rest of the details till i get round to writing up the build thread.

[costasa]

Hello,

Again thank you Montza for your tips, i'm thinking use the original diesel deckel (i don't know if i will use the pump with 30% increase with the original oil sump)

The tip from the toyota conroads is great but i was cheking the data of the conrods and it's for the 134mm conrods (use with the 2.2 or 2.4 crank)

My ideia is use the 1.6 crank and 128mm conrods (as the original length) bore the 1.9 block to 95mm use the 2.0 sport pistons from wossner or other brand i'm searching for brands and prices.

I'm thinking use the 1.9 head if i use the 2.2 or the 2.4 the inlet manifold are diferent and i allready have the inlet and exaust manifold to use with the 1.6-2.0 heads.

The advice to use the valves from the c30se is great i just check in ebay and the prices are very atractive

http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=380396135261&fromMakeTrack=true&ssPageName=VIP:watchlink:top:de

Just a question the 46/41 valves don't will be to extreme to the 1.9 head? It's a simple swap? In ebay we have this option to the valve,s polished and with a improve design to better flow, comparing with the 3.0 valves what will be the best choice?

http://www.ebay.de/itm/Neue-Bearbeitete-Ventile-2-0-2-4-CIH-40-45-mm-Kadett-C-/260918873892?pt=DE_Autoteile&hash=item3cbffa0f24

Enem have many parts and they must do a good job tuning the head, i need to check the currency to the swedish crow.

The camshaft that i have is a kent op244 (290º) probabily the most high cam that i can use in the road.

I not find yet a company near to me to balance the crank and flywheel but when i find i will discuss whit them the option to balance all together.

In relation to the flywheel, i have seen in ebay some flywheels in aluminiun, do you recommend to use this type of flywheel, or the good old steel flywheel is the best to go?

2908642343 If you are preparing a build thread about a 2.4 engine that will be great, i will read it and i know that i will learn a lot.

Is great to change ideias and opinions about the cih tuning, the best is learn how the things work and why choose some ways instead of others.

Thank you

I know but that is not a common error. The head can also pop off, flywheel fly off and make like a discos in the car etc

By the way, for you CIH 8V fans in here, here´s a little something from youtube, you can´t beat the sound of a CIH it is exceptional!

The CIH sound is like music

thanks

[monzta]

2908 i can totally follow your idea My suggestions here are focused on how to make a relativly cheap 150´ish hp CIH

Costa:

Yeah Diesel oil lid is just fine for your purpose. As mentioned before a original standard oilpump will also perform very well.

Regarding the 41/46 valves they are of course not a direct fit as you need to get the bases on the head machined to take the larger valves. But this is a simple operation once the head has been taken apart. You should go for the 46/41 valves i think.

Regarding the Toyota Rods that is right they are for the long stroke cranks, my mistake

You can keep the 1,9 head, no problems and i totally understand your thoughts on the 2,2/2,4 manifolds, they are pretty expensive too. So if you are keeping you 1,9 head, you will need to get the following mod´s done. Heighten the oil level by inserting a small tube in the oil return hole. Get the intake ports ported and enlarged, and get you intake manifold taken care of the same way so you don´t have any bottlenecks on the intake part.

Regarding the exhaust ports i have recently discussed exhaust flow on another forum, and we discussed flow vs speed. As many may think the exhaust needs to flow well like the intake, but even more important is exhaust speed. If you are keeping your original "E" engine type exhaust manifold this will be very good with original exhaust ports. If you are using a header type exhaust manifold you will need to get the exhaust ports ported as well. Regarding exhaust the space should get smaller and smaller the longer down the exhaust system you get. If you have small exhaust ports, and big exhaust tube on the manifold there will be a buildup of exhaust that will disrupt both flow and especially speed. Look at your exhaust like a garden hose. When you turn on the water there is a steady stream of water pouring from the hose. If you reduce this hole to half diameter what will then happen? The water will spray and you will gain a pressure buildup in the hose. On the exhaust it works the same, the trick is to find the pefect balance between exhaust speed and pressure. Too much pressure the engine will use too much power removing the exhaust, too little the flow and speed will be bad...

My suggestion is for up to 170bhp stock exhaust manifold from 2,0E, 2" exhaust system with 2 boxes and stock exhaust ports in the head.

Regarding the flywheel, yes there is alot of power to get when lightening the flywheel. For your purpose though i would get the original flywheel lightened a bit and balanced properly like we have been discussing. Those aluminium flywheels are extremely light and may give you fast revs, but makes the engine unstable and it will propably not be able to iddle below 2000rpm or something You can remove about 1,0kg of the original flywheel without problems.

There is alot of info on how low you can go with the standard flywheel weight for a streetcar.

Would love to see the 2,4 build threat too i have some 2,2 build pics somewhere will try to find it...

[2908642343]

Monzta;

The idea behind the 2.4 build, is that the current engine is 2.2 Cih which puts out 137 BHP on the dyno. As I am running an A/C in my Manta which is original Opel from a left hand drive car converted to fit a right hand drive car.

The A/C takes out a fair amount of power when it is running so the 2.4 should compensate for this fact. I am hoping the 2.4 build should give about 170bhp. With the A/C not running and the Opel LSD fitted I should be able to have some fun to :-)

It will also give the car longer legs as well for across Europe driving.

The only thing that I have not managed to crack yet is to mate the 2.4 to a six speed box, as yet not found a way to do this yet, but have plenty of time to find the solution or build a solution.

At least when the 2.4 build is done I will be able to sell the 2.2 and all the associated bits to recover some money As will be selling a complete running 2.2 with wiring loom etc.

[monzta]

2908 that sounds like a plan mate.

You can fit the 2,2/2,4 to a Getrag 265 (late Senator A2 / Monza A2 GS/E) but those lumps are pretty expensive. Here they can easily cost 1000£, and i got more than that for the last one i sold. I can´t remember if the 2,2/2,4 has the same mounting holes for the flywheel on the crank (depends on what crank you have used) as the 30E, but if it does you can use a Monza / Senator flywheel and clutch. If not, you need to get your 2,2/2,4 flywheel redone to take the 9" clutch of the Monza GS/E and make new holes and thread for the mounting bolts of the clutch. From there it is plug´n play enginewise. However the 265 is a massive lump, and will use all the space the gearbox tunnel has. There may be a problem around the shifter, but that is easily fixed. The propshaft will need to be custom made to fit in the 265 as the internals are just as massive.

I have not yet known of anyone who has trashed a 265 gearbox. Those things are absolutely massive, but as said they are expensive stuff.

170hp from a 2,4 CIH is very low sat, of course depending on your head and intake, but it is within reach without compromising the sturdyness of the engine by far.

[2908642343]

Monzta;

Already running the Monza flywheel 9ich clutch and the extended clutch fork.

As to the head well it will be something a bit special, but will flow better than the standard one, as experimenting with the inlet manifold flow.

The basic head work is done, with the vales, cam etc are all new it it just down to the flow of the intake system.

The Gertag 265 is not the best option, and i agree the prices are maddness at the moment.

[monzta]

The Getrag 265 is the best option if you are looking at the Opel range of gearboxes. The R28 is also good but can not cope with the power that the 265 can. The 265 is used in a wide variaty of powerfull cars, like BMW M5´s and M3´s. Also some exist for the old RWD Volvo´s etc. I know that someone in Norway makes adapter plates for the 265 to fit on C20LET and XE engines.

If you are looking for gearboxes outside the Opel brand the selection is quite big, and other gearboxes like ZF from Mercedes 190E 2,3 16V is also a possible to fit after some work.

My brother who has a A series Manta racing car (historic racing) are currently looking at the US market for a Muncie Rock-crunsher gearbox. Those are 4 speed manual and have straight cut gears. It also has a very long 1. gear (80-90km/h @ 6000rpm with a 3,44 rear axle) and have a fínal gear of 1:1.

What gearbox is it you want to fit ? Is it a R28?

[lamchop77]

_Costasa

_{For your info, was looking at wossner pistons the other day and i think they now do a long rod version of the 2.0 piston. I haven't contacted them but i think this is using the 2.0 crank 2.4 134mm rods and then the long rod piston. this i think would be your easiest solution and would give a good rod ratio. If you are going to use std rods get them shotpeened along with the crank as this stress relieves and also improves the strength of the rods/crank.}

_{A word of caution as well, alot of the CIH pistons are designed to be used with the 2.0 style head so the crowns of the piston match the 2.0 combustion chamber. The 2.2 combustion chamber is a different shape for unshrouding the valves, this means that the piston crown can actually make contact with the head depending on how much the head/block have been skimmed. This is easily remidied by relieving the edge of the combustion chamber to clear.}

_Montza

_{Not sure about the 1.9 blocks being better on cooling as i have looked at all the different ones and they all seem to be the same, is it a known fact or something that is assumed? I only ask because therecould be another explanation for it. Got this info from Hiro on opel tuners. When the blocks are bored the head and gearbox are not attached, when bolted up they could actually deform the bores slightly so they are out of tolerance and as you say it is always no 4 bore that picks up or fails. Thing is when running forged pistons your looking at a 0.0035" piston to wall clearance which is tight so a 0.001" movement could cause the piston to pick up as the block heats up. I have noticed that most engines suffer from cooling issues between 2 and 3.}

_{I made up a thick boring plate so that headbolts could be torqued up to full tightness before boring, also did the bellhousing bolts as it was thought that this could also affect it. Had it measured numerous times whilst being bored and it didn't shift with the plate on. Engine guy also said that the boring machine seated better with the boring plate.}

_Cheers

_Chris

Edited January 16, 2012 by lamchop77

[rutts]

talking about getrag 265s i have one out of a jaguar xj40 1990 model. ok it has no speedo cable take off but it has same out put as a manta prop (straight fit). clutch drive spline is ford so no problem with finding a clutch plate loads of uprated clutches available for rally purposes. i have a bellhousing i made for XE engine but reverting to CIH for my ascona a so got a monza bell housing off a great opel parts supplier in ambleside (DREW TURNER).

if you want to fit a BMW 6 speed box buy the bellhousing conversion plate off WWW.EBAY.DE but these boxes dont have speedo drive gear either. i have been offered a BMW M3 6 speed box cheap but not bothered with it as of yet. loving this thread as i have a 1.9 engine and also possibly a 2.4 engine cannot decide what to build up for fitting first. i have two sets of SOLEX addhe carbs to fit when i get to engine build time.

[costasa]

_Costasa

_{For your info, was looking at wossner pistons the other day and i think they now do a long rod version of the 2.0 piston. I haven't contacted them but i think this is using the 2.0 crank 2.4 134mm rods and then the long rod piston. this i think would be your easiest solution and would give a good rod ratio. If you are going to use std rods get them shotpeened along with the crank as this stress relieves and also improves the strength of the rods/crank.}

_{A word of caution as well, alot of the CIH pistons are designed to be used with the 2.0 style head so the crowns of the piston match the 2.0 combustion chamber. The 2.2 combustion chamber is a different shape for unshrouding the valves, this means that the piston crown can actually make contact with the head depending on how much the head/block have been skimmed. This is easily remidied by relieving the edge of the combustion chamber to clear.}

_Montza

_{Not sure about the 1.9 blocks being better on cooling as i have looked at all the different ones and they all seem to be the same, is it a known fact or something that is assumed? I only ask because therecould be another explanation for it. Got this info from Hiro on opel tuners. When the blocks are bored the head and gearbox are not attached, when bolted up they could actually deform the bores slightly so they are out of tolerance and as you say it is always no 4 bore that picks up or fails. Thing is when running forged pistons your looking at a 0.0035" piston to wall clearance which is tight so a 0.0001" movement could cause the piston to pick up as the block heats up. I have noticed that most engines suffer from cooling issues between 2 and 3.}

_{I made up a thick boring plate so that headbolts could be torqued up to full tightness before boring, also did the bellhousing bolts as it was thought that this could also affect it. Had it measured numerous times whilst being bored and it didn't shift with the plate on. Engine guy also said that the boring machine seated better with the boring plate.}

_Cheers

_Chris

Hi Chris,

Thanks for the info, that is good news if wossner is doing 2.0 pistons to the long rod version, and for the tip to check the combustion chamber with the top piston crown.

What type of pistons that you prefer flat top or with crowns? I have reading some topics in opelgt forum and rallybob use a lot flat pistons.

thanks

Samuel Costa

[lamchop77]

Samuel

i think flat tops are the ideal route to go BUT you cant get high comp ratio without crowns. Had a set of custom pistons done with the help of Dave Powell at performance unlimited. He works on alot of yank V8s which have a similar piston/combustion chamber set up. Basically he recommended that if you do have a crown to increse the comp ratio keep it as minimal as possible as it can interfere with flame propogation across the cylinder. Wossners seem to have a good following and are nicely made.

Rallybob is a wealth of knowledge but he has access to a different pool of engines. He tends to use earlier heads with small combustion chambers and mods them with impressive results although he has used 2.2 motors. In England i have access to 2.0/2.2/2.4 so if i want to up the ratio the easiest route is to use the crowned pistons.

HTH

Chris

[611]

Have been reading this tread for a while now as its interesting to hear all the different stuff about tuning they old CIH. Was thinking about doing some work on mine while its apart but its all getting very techy!

I have a 1.9 taken out to a 2.0 and have a head of a 2.0l B that i was told had been ported and had bigger valves, it has X20 stamped on the side. Does anyone know what the standard valve sizes were for 2.0l?

Im running a mild road kent cam, and will be running twn 45 throttle boddies with full injection (weber alpha).

The engine is in bits at the moment and i have had it all wash, bores honed and the head skimmed to remove a little bit of corriosion.

I dont want to spend too much more on the engine as i still have lots of bits left to do on the car so the question is:

Just put it all back together and drop it in?

or is there anything i can do to add a little bit of extra performance that is easy to do and wont cost too much?

Any thoughts would be great.

Thanks Andy

www.theopelproject.com

p.s got a limited slip diff in it that i got from an auto a while back if that makes any difference to what i do?

Edited January 15, 2012 by 611

[lamchop77]

Andy

Think the std size 2.0 valves are something like 41mm inlet 36mm exhaust can't remember off the top of my head. Bigger valves will usually be 45/41. I assume the cam is a OP214. Should be fairly good with the 45 throttle bodies.

For extra performance get the whole thing lightened and balanced, clutch,flywheel,crank and front pulley. Get the flywheel skimmed down to lighten it before the balance. Min thickness anywhere on the flywheel should be no less than 12mm when finished. You could do the rods as well getbthem all weight matched, i have a set already done that were on the forsale section on here. This work will give you a free revving engine with better throttle response. Only other thing would be to up to an OP234 you should be easily on 150+bhp.

Dont waste money on a 4 branch manifold the std cast one is fine.

HTH

Chris

[611]

Hey Chris

Thanks for the info. I have measured the valves and they are 44mm inlet and 36mm exhaust. So might have had some work done.

I will have to look into the option of getting it all balanced. Do you have any idea of a rough cost?

I already have a 4-1 manifold that I got from the US as before the car was taken apart for the rebuild it had twin carbs with 4-2-1 exhaust which was crap, so I'm going to make a new stainless system this time. I think the cam is the one you said as didn't want to go too wild as there wasnt much clearance when running the carbs so didn't want it too rough on tick over. I think I might have a bit more room running the throttle bodies so might be an option. Again it's down to cost as have to get the wheels refurbished and all new tyres and have spent a small fortune on it so far :-)

How much were your rods that you had for sale?

Andy

[garymanc]

p.s got a limited slip diff in it that i got from an auto a while back if that makes any difference to what i do?

did not think a auto had a lsd

[lamchop77]

Andy

Sounds like its had the 45mm 2.2/2.4 valve thats been fitted, good mod and with a bit of a clean up of the ports can see good power gains. Price for l+b is about 85-100 quid but can be more, ring round a few places see mif they do it near you.

Rods were up at £40 and they are weight matched to a gram, no takers so make me an offer if you want.

Garymanc lsd's were a factory optional extra so a lucky find methinks!!!!

Chris

[611]

Hey garymanc

As chris says its was a special option you could have fitted to the A. And yes chris it was a lucky find, i broke a rusty auto and kept lots of bit (one being the axel) and it sat at the back of the garage for about 3 years and it was only that someone was looking for an axel that i dug it out to see what it was like ( i hadnt used it as one of the spring hangers was rusty) and when i took the diff cover off i thought ooh look at that! one factory limited slip diff :-) best opel find i've had!

Chris it looks like the head has had the ports cleaned up as they are nice and smooth. Is £25 + postage too low for the rods? and im not much of an engine expert but will they just fit on in place of mine? or do i need to check what ones i have on mine first?

Andy

[costasa]

Samuel

i think flat tops are the ideal route to go BUT you cant get high comp ratio without crowns. Had a set of custom pistons done with the help of Dave Powell at performance unlimited. He works on alot of yank V8s which have a similar piston/combustion chamber set up. Basically he recommended that if you do have a crown to increse the comp ratio keep it as minimal as possible as it can interfere with flame propogation across the cylinder. Wossners seem to have a good following and are nicely made.

Rallybob is a wealth of knowledge but he has access to a different pool of engines. He tends to use earlier heads with small combustion chambers and mods them with impressive results although he has used 2.2 motors. In England i have access to 2.0/2.2/2.4 so if i want to up the ratio the easiest route is to use the crowned pistons.

HTH

Chris

Hi Chris,

Thanks for your reply, it is great to learn more and knowing diferent opinions and routes.

I'm trying to set a main goal to my engine and i'm open to study all the options and the use off chevy parts as rallybob use is a good option because we can buy at good price the parts in us ebay the only problem it will be the custom fees.

Samuel