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IanMc

Polar White and Rust - a restoration epic, can it even be done?

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hi ian. well i can see whats happened here. it looks like somebody in the past has changed the rectifier for the wrong type.there is a wire or metal strip coming off the positive side that is supposed to connect internally to the voltage regulator on alternators which have 1 little spade terminal.yours has two and this is the wire that links the bat term with the positive terminal.EXTRNALLY.it looks to have burnt the regulator quite badly by the spades. we will have to see if its caused any other untold damage.

have a look at the pictures ive just sent you and you will see how it should look. no internal linking strip. 

let me know when you have seen them. cheers

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Yes, all received thanks Chris.

I think I can understand what you are saying.

Apologies in advance if this is going to be hard work for you, I am OK with mechanical jobs, but not too hot on electrical stuff I am afraid.

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basically that internal metal strip shouldnt be there. its for the wrong alternator .it wasnt connected to anything cos theres nothing for it to connect to. its blown big style and may or may not have damaged other stuff. 

not to worry thou. im perfectly happy to help you through it so no worries my end.

to test the parts you will need a test meter with the beeper/diode test function

basically that internal metal strip shouldnt be there. its for the wrong alternator .it wasnt connected to anything cos theres nothing for it to connect to. its blown big style and may or may not have damaged other stuff. 

not to worry thou. im perfectly happy to help you through it so no worries my end.

to test the parts you will need a test meter with the beeper/diode test function

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Thanks Chris, I will send you a photo of my test meter via email shortly :thumbup

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hi ian. yes thats fine. what i will do is pull one of mine apart tommorow so we can compare readings and wel see whats ok and what isnt. 

first you need to undo the 3 wires from the stator then it will lift out.

then remove the orange diode trio.

then undo the screws holding the burnt regulator in place and remove along with the brushes and 2 springs

then seeing as how it may be damaged you might as well remove the big rectifier block from the back casing.

VERYIMPORTANT note which screws come from where and which screws have metal washers on and which ones have nylon insulators on them.

il await your message as to when you are ready. cheers ian. happy tinkering mate. i assume it wont be tonight !

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Got it, thanks mate.

I’m pleased to hear that my meter is suitable.

Unfortunately it won’t be tonight now and tomorrow is Archery night 👍 - so it will be Saturday now.

Thanks again!

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no worries ian. dont worry though an alternator isnt that complicated .its basically stator coils going to a rectifier to make dc.then a voltage regulator to regulate the voltage to the rotating field..if it all is knackered i can sort you one but i think you will prefer to have an alternator that you have built yourself on the car? let me know when you are ready to test and il guide you through it. see ya mate

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just confirm if you can please that yours is still the original 45 a type and i will dismantle the same to check . cheers ian.( it is written on the side !)

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37 minutes ago, cam.in.head said:

just confirm if you can please that yours is still the original 45 a type and i will dismantle the same to check . cheers ian.( it is written on the side !)

OK, will do.

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hi ian. yes its a 45amp.

they usually are but you never know whats been changed in the past. 

ok. once you get yours fully apart well go through it and see what it needs. otherwise if there are too many faults then replacement might be the best bet.

there is one on ebay at the moment which is correct and supposedly reconditioned if needs be.

but im sure you would like to do your own if pos for the experience and satisfaction.

i will await your disasembly. ..cheers ....

ps il send a view of the ebay page thats  on at the moment in case

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OK Chris the Alternator is stripped.

I am awaiting your further instructions :D  :thumbup

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hi ian. right you are. il guide you through it in easy stages.i will explain it as detailed as i can .please go through each bit at a time.

put you meter on the ohms range (20k should be ok )idealy a proper earth tester should be used but at 12-14volt any faults will be obvious anyway.

take the rotating centre piece and with some fine emery clean up the two copper sliprings to get a good connection.

put the meter on any one of these and make sure there is NO reading to the centre shaft or any other metal part of it.

then put the meter on the 200 ohm range and measure the resistance on the two copper sliprings.you should have a reading. make a note.

hopefully rotor will test ok. 

next bit clean the 3 stator wire lugs and test the resistance between them in every order(ie 1 to 2 ,then 2 to 3 ,then 1 to 3)all should be very close to each other .take a note of the readings....Now put the meter back on the 20k range and test one of the 3 stator leads to its metal body. NO reading should be found.... hopefully all ok so far .thats the windings parts all checked out. obviously have look around for any obvious burnt wires but hopefully all will be well.

you have mentioned the bearing is rough. they usually are ......£3 - £5 on ebay .try to go for a 2rs rubber shielded type if pos as they keep the water out better. some had them as original,others only had a metal shielded type in.

report back  after this lot .cheers isn

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Hi Chris,

Re: test number 2, could you clarify please:

-  The scale to select - 200 Ohms or 200 K Ohms?

- Am I to put a probe on each of the slip rings for this test?

Thanks! 

 

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OK Chris, I can report my test findings so far:

Rotor tests

Test 1 (on 20k Ohm scale)

- Front slip ring to shaft: 0 Ohms

- Rear slip ring to shaft: 0 Ohms

- Front slip ring to other part(s): 0 Ohms

- Rear slip ring to other parts(s): 0 Ohms

Test 2 - please clarify Chris (as above post)

Stator tests

Test 1 (on 200 Ohm scale)

Ring 1 to ring 2 = 0.8 Ohms

Ring 2 to ring 3 = 0.7 Ohms, fluctuating to 0.8 sometimes...

Ring 3 to ring 1 = 0.8 Ohms

Test 2 (on 20k Ohm scale)

Lead 1 to body = 0 Ohms

Lead 2 to body = 0 Ohms

Lead 3 to body = 0 Ohms

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hi ian. that all sounds good. the other test i meant was put the meter on 200 ohms and test touching each slipring .the reading should be about 3.0 give or take. .mine reads that .

the other readings are similar to mine at 0.8 so all looks good so far. 

the diode trio (little orange thing )is tested by putting the meter in the diode test position. (bottom right of dial ,little arrow and line type symbol !. )

put one meter lead on the long strip connector and try the other to all 3 little pins in turn.you will get 3 non circuits through it..now swap the meter leads and you will get 3 definate circuits through it of approx .400 to .900 . basically proving it works as a one way device only.

now test the big silver diode block the same way.ie no circuit between the top half of the unit(negative ) and either 3 centre studs and a circuit if leads are reversed..the same idea but opposite with the lower half of the unit (positive)to the 3 studs. you may need to press on hard as the connections can be dirty or corroded and give a false reading..there should be no readings between any of the pins to each other.

now examine the brushes .the top one that i can see looks fine .cannot see the other but if its similar all should be ok.

so the only thing left which is definately suspect is the regulator. yours looks burnt and i would be definately replacing that . 

so if all the tests are ok then you will need a regulator and a bearing. (other roller besring can be changed if totally u/s but thry are usually ok and respond to a clean and regreasing. 

good luck mate . let me know how you get on. cheers.

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Thanks again Chris.

OK I can now report the following:

Rotor test 2 (200 Ohm scale) = 3.3 Ohms

Diode trio test 1 - Black probe on long lead, Red to the 3 x pin loops

Pin 1 = 585

Pin 2 = 598

Pin 3 = 581

Diode trio test 2 - Leads reversed

Pin 1 = 0

Pin 2 = 0

Pin 3 = 001 (sometimes...)

Silver Diode block test 1 - top half/negative to pins

Pin 1 = 0

Pin 2 = 0

Pin 3 = 0

Silver Diode block test 2 - bottom half/positive to pins

Pin 1 = 534

Pin 2 = 462

Pin 3 = 507

Silver Diode block test 3 - pin to pin test

Pin 1 to 2 = 0

Pin 2 to 3 = 0

Pin 3 to 1 = 0

Brush lengths

One measured 10.5 mm at its shortest point (on the curve)

The other measured 9.75 mm at it shortest point.

 

By process of elimination, I assume that the regulator is the White/Cream funny shaped block with the three mounting holes and two electrical connectors?

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The diode trio is strange . It should test for circuit one way and not the other so not 100% sure about the 001 reading.should be ok.examine it closely.its not cracked is it ,hard to tell from picture?. Also when you measured the main rectifier you did try both halves both ways didnt you .you only mention top half as giving a reading one way and bottom half the other .if you didnt then just make sure that the positive and the negative parts of the rectifier only work in one direction and not the other. Swapping leads to confirm one way only. I think you know what i mean. 

So it sounds like you have got away with just needing a regulator(yes the white unit with 2 spades and 3 screws. )There are different versions available with the spades pointing different ways so make sure you get the right one.. And maybee a trio?

And make sure you remove and bin the internal link connector that some nutter left inside !

basically what you have just done today is check that the coils are insulated from the body and compared resistances.you have also confirmed one way diode function. Lots of people couldnt be bothered to do all this but you and me obviously do.there are ways of checking the regulator but ive never bothered myself and after all they are cheap enough and worth changing .you used to be able to buy overhaul kits that had regulator,brushes and bearings in 

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Sorry Chris, I didn't check the Silver Diode block in both directions... However I have just done that and confirm:

Top half (Neg.) = no reading in either direction.

Bottom half (Pos.) = reading only in one direction.

I was going to try these people for the bits required: http://www.jcrsupplies.co.uk/   Have you used them?  Would you recommend anywhere else?

Sincere thanks for all your help today matey!  :thumbup

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Hi ian so it sound like the rectifier is knackered too. Probably caused by the link wire shorting on something. 

So basically you have an alternator that needs 1 bearing,a rectifier block(different styles available that have the mounting holes in different place at the positive side so ensure you get the right one),a regulator and a trio .if it were me i would consider the one on ebay as its a good price and supposedly reconditioned. ( you could always open it up and check it all out !)

or at least see what you can get the parts for. Not used that site myself.i tend to find everything i need on ebay. Others may disagree !

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