Reviving GTE Starting tips wanted please?

[Barillo]

Hello Folks.  After acquiring a decent bodywork but non running Manta B GTE Exclusive Hatch up in the Highlands of Inverness I have been learning daily from this forum and reading bits of the Haynes manual to get this car back on the road. Where the car was sat I first went to turn the engine with good fresh petrol & it actually fired a couple of times after it had not been turned over in a year which was encouraging.  I got the car towed to my house and have been working on various bits and pieces and sourcing various parts - because the car did not come complete and has various stuff taken off it and missing a few bits which is frustrating.- I replaced the Air Intake pipe which was shredded with a brand new one,  Took the spark plugs out and cleaned them and checked they all sparked and they seemed fine, Hooked up a good battery,  Got my pal round to help me fire it up and it did not fire this time...  I could hear a clicking sound coming from the air sensor box so took off the K&N cone filter that was fitted and saw a flapper valve going back and forward making the clipping sound.  I pushed it in a bit with my finger while my mate tried starting and the engine made a few slight firing sounds but nothing to get too excited about.. almost like the extra bit of air offered thru the system helped a bit?   Anyway I have being learning a bit about the fuel delivery / injection and trying to find out the best ways to get this motor started logically and hopefully without too much problems.   Fuel injection systems and the electronics are new to me and I would prefer to check the tech out with some experts before having to think about the more complex stuff as I know nothing about the previous history of this car.   I read a helpful post on this forum saying the Haynes manual diagram for the fuel pumping system is wrong about the Injection Inlet & return to tank lines getting them wrong way round! The return line goes thru the regulator back to tank. (The tee piece carries the pressure fuel to the rail)  I am going to test the fuel pump today to check flow to injectors ( 2p fuse bridge trick) and try and do the more basic checks with the beginners knowledge I have.  Could anyone give me some some tips on how they would systematically go about re- starting the GTE?  Before getting hung up about the ECU or Mass Air sensor unit etc.  My budget is a little short at the present time.  Thanks for reading. Cheers. Bar

[Danny D114BCW]

Hi Bar, firstly you should join the club as there are many threads on this topic and for the money the knowledge is vast! as some members dont like to give a lot of information to non paying members. 

i think you are doing the correct thing which is the check the flow of fuel to the rail and check the colour of the fuel. Then if that is okay you are getting into more complicated/costly issues. 

good luck,

 

[Barillo]

Thanks Danny. I absolutely understand what you are saying.  Yes I am planning on joining the club soon as the funds will allow which will be pretty shortly I think as I will be selling my other car to pay for Manta repairs & stuff (such as the parts fiche) but first need to pay for its mechanics bill parts and MOT test first which is nearly always more than you hoped for.  I also would like to put pictures of my GTE on the forums ongoing projects page which will be quite soon I hope.   Just out of curiosity If thing do start getting complex do you or anyone you know have the ECU box ? air sensor or such LE electronic  parts for sale?  Regards. Bar

[IanMc]

I can’t specifically on the fuel injection system, but I can comment on some things you can quickly, easily and cheaply check...

For an engine to run, it needs: Fuel, Spark and Air.

If any of those are missing, it’s never going to run, so you need to check that all three are present at the cylinders.

After that check the timing and the compression in each cylinder.

Good luck.

[cam.in.head]

It all depends on how long this has been sat since it was last run and did you get any clues from the seller as to wether it was ok when parked up or was it suffering any issues then?.

if it was ok when last used then more than likely it’s just stuck injectors but you will need to run through it in a logical order.

are you fairly confident the fuel in the tank is ok.a year or two won’t be a problem so long as it not got any water in it.you can use the 2p trick to run the pump and you should here a constant quiet steady note from it.the fuel pipes will feel cool to the touch and you may well hear the fuel running through the fuel rail .you could disconnect the return feed either at the pipe coming off the regulator or the return stub at the tank to observe the flow and colour .if all is well move to stage two

check rotor arm and cap for any major damage and whilst cranking check spark from main lead to earth.

you have already checked the plugs .were they dry or smell of petrol? .

the air flow meter may well make a knocking sound when cranking as the individual “sucks” for want of a better description will cause it to move(all normal) .ensure all hoses are fitted and air tight ,including brake servo connection which can have a tendency to go brittle with age.

Re assemble everything ready to fire up and sit in the car with the fuel pump 2p fitted. Turn key with no throttle and see what happens.when you turn engine over the tacho may quiver slightly proving coil is working but not always noticeable.

does the engine try to start ?    Does it almost try but not properly ?  If so give it a small amount of throttle and continue. Usually after a very long lay up the injectors get sticky and will in most cases free themselves up once all 4 cylinders eventually come on.  

If no joy. Check now to see if plugs are dry or wet.

if it now runs turn it off,remove 2p and try it normally to make sure fuel pump relay is ok.

a faulty relay can stop fuel pump and injectors so if you need to prove this put a link in the relay base from pin 30 to 87 and 87a 

good luck mate

[Barillo]

HI Folks. Thanks for these replies and I think these are excellent tips to go by.   Plenty good stuff on here..  My GTE was bought by the guy I used to work with as a non runner. He did not have the time or the funds to do anything with it and it just sat for around a year while I paid him up in a few instalments for it.  He always said it would start but the reality is it only ever fired a few times & coughed. That was it.  I figured I could give it the time and work it needed and being a kid who liked cars in the in the 80s The Manta GTE was always in the top 5.  Basically there is nothing quite like these cars except Capris and the fact is the Manta is a better car.  I put about 10 litres of good petrol on top of what ever old stuff was in there so that should have made thing pure and rich enough fuel-wise for starting. Hopefully.   The plugs had sooty deposits on them when I checked them but I cleaned it it off easily with a wire brush then checked sparks for all cylinders and they all spark.  I did not think about Blocked/Stuck injectors before but I will go thru this list of tips in proper order with my friend over next couple of days and return  post about any progress made.   Big thanks for all advise as it has helped my understanding a lot.  Regards. Bar

[cam.in.head]

Hi. Yes work your way back through the basics first and then we can delve deeper into things actually being faulty. Injectors can indeed become stuck.(proved by wet or dry plugs) but in most cases they free up eventually.if not they can be cleaned or swapped for known good ones.

once you have proved fuel and spark and made sure everything is connected/plugged in where it should we should have some kind of action .at least as a starting point. Keep us posted as you go along . Cheers.

[cam.in.head]

Wouldn’t be a bad idea thou to make sure fuel is definately ok.you put new fuel in on top of how much old fuel ?. If you could empty tank completely and start again to be 100% sure .would be a shame to try all sorts of things only to find it was contaminated fuel all along.im sure you know what I mean. No offence intended .

[Snowy]

Just use some easy start to see if the ignition system is working properly. 

Pull the injection relay or fuel pump fuse.

If you can't get the car to fire on easy start your ignition isn't working.

You should be able to get the car to idle for a few seconds with easy start. 

Remember that the ignition system on a GTE is completely separate to the ecu.

Although the ecu need so see the dissy to keep the injection relay latched the dissy only needs it's power feed to work.

[cam.in.head]

Good thinking . Like you say that will prove if there’s at least some basic life in the ignition system.

actual injection may well be faulty as such but may just be bad fuel of stuck injectors. 

Hopefully we will know shortly

 

[IanMc]

Any more progress Bar?

[DJacobs]

I had the similar problem with my 2.7 Exclusive coupe last summer; the car started but ran horribly and cut out randomly. after trying new coil, dissy cap, spark plugs, fuel pump, nothing worked.

turned out to be bad fuel; I had about a quarter tank of super unleaded left over from the previous year, and it was only by siphoning out the out fuel and putting in fresh, was the issue resolved.

it was especially a pain replacing the fuel pump; I sawed off the rubber mount in order to replace it, and had to order a new one, luckily, from here:

https://www.edelschmiede.com/shop/Set-rubber-buffer-fuel-pump-Opel-cih-rubber-bearing-petrol-pump

 

[cam.in.head]

All sorted now. . .?  ?   

[Barillo]

Hello Folks.

Been having very nice and hot weather up here in Inverness and still no joy in firing up the GTE.  One problem is that my friend who usually helps me with cars has not been around much to help out because of work reasons and also other jobs needing doing around house/garden etc.    I have made some progress though and gone through a few of the suggestions made to me so far.  OK first I did the amazing 2p trick with fuel pipes disconnected onto wine bottle with starter motor black wires off and hardly any petrol came out but could hear the pump running so thought maybe the filter was blocked. I knew there was some fuel in the tank because I poured some in say around 4 or 5 liters in when I first went to try starting the car where it sat just to check back then if it would start  .  Yesterday my friend and I went to try the Easystart up the intake and I foolishly sprayed too much in trying to get the motor to run on it which it did kind of do in a short sputter then BANG!  the stuff backfired EXPLODED back over my hand and I was very lucky not to have got badly hurt although hand was mildly burned.  I was being a bit greedy pumping the stuff in just trying to get to hear it run for a few seconds.  There was a small fire but only because the can of Easystart caught fire in the engine bay but it was put out and no apparent damage done. BIG lesson learnt there!! Next step was to jack the back end of car up on blocks and decided I would take pump/filter and the tank off and give them all a proper check including the sender unit assy..   The fuel in the tank was clean although there was not much of it but would have thought it was enough for the sender filter cone to suck up which also was clean and free from gunk.  The pump unit and filter appeared to look fine as did the wiring connections .  Next I hooked up a piece of hose to a petrol can from the pump suction feed and another hose from the return line into another tank and tested pumping fuel through to fill a wine bottle up at the injection end and it worked.  The fuel came out clean and it did not take to long to fill the bottle up showing me that the pump and filter are probably not the problem and maybe there just was not enough fuel in the tank but there was some?? Anyway the tank is out and it could do with a wire brush and some Neutrarust treatment and I will clean some of the visible underparts now I have a chance..   I hooked up the fuel pipes to tee piece and regulator return on Auxiliary tanks and attempted starting it again tonight but did not succeed.  It did not fire even and it must have being getting fuel under pressure this time but it was never going to be as easy as just not having enough petrol in the first place.  One question I have is when I hooked both the injection system pipes back on and did the 2p trick I wanted to see the return fuel get dumped into my AUX tank number 2 but nothing came out .  Should the pump pressure overcome the regulator to let the fuel circulate whilst using 2p method? with the engine not running?  Maybe its the fuel reg?  Next step is to try and see if its the relay and test the one I have but think that's one item i am as well just buying a new on anyway.   Thanks to all you folks on this forum that are doing a fine job helping getting Opel Manta back on the road.  All replies are much appreciated.  Bar

[cam.in.head]

Hi Barry. The fact that it did fire up in some way when you used the easy start shows that the ignition system is at least doing something and I remember you said you had checked for a spark before and there was one.

so

i think we can now confirm it’s more to do with the fuel side of things.yes wether the engine is running or not you should see a return of fuel to the tank.

once you have put the tank back on and made sure the tank filter is not blocked test again that you are getting a GOOD powerful flow out of the pump to the t piece. If so then its possibly the regulator that is stuck although I’ve never seen it happen before.even Though the regulator isn’t returning fuel I would have thought the engine would have fired(in some way) because there will be pressure at the injectors so I would still suspect that the flow is very low pressure and it’s because of this that the regulator is not operating.its not seeing enough pressure to open.

once you end up with a good return flow to the tank which you are not getting now we will be one step close if not running. 

And also yes to your point that there may not be enough fuel in the tank.if the level is low especially if it’s a hatch the fuel may not reach the pick up pipe. BUT it should still suck ok from a can as you said you did .

my suspicion is the actual pump or a blockage in the line somewhere

I wish I was near to you.i would have willingly given you a hand. 

[Barillo]

Hello again.  Thanks for the information and second opinion and i'm pretty sure if you were able to help me up here with this car my problems would soon be over but I am learning new stuff about the GTE everyday by working on it and trying to find faults and there is some satisfaction to be had in it.  Most worthwhile things rarely come too easily. I am sure the tank filter is clean but have not refitted the tank because is is getting full rust treatment first.  I had another tinker with the car tonight and also had my car help friend and my Dad give me some advice.    We double checked the engine timing.  I tested fuel flow using my Twin Auxiliary tank set up again along with 2 P trick to see if I could pass fuel flow under pump pressure out of the return flow pipe but it didn't happen meaning it is either the fuel pump being possibly sub standard /worn out  or the regulator may be at fault & needs replaced.  Still as you say the fuel pump is pumping fuel to the injector rail with some pressure so why is the car not firing??   I'm going to order a new relay tonight and perhaps just get a pump and filter soon too because I am not satisfied that the flow check that i did into the wine bottle was powerful enough.  Moneys a little tight right now otherwise I would probably just have got every suspect part including new regulator mail ordered ASAP but I want to really keep the cost down if I can and do proper research first.  I have been recommended a good old timer local Mechanic who I might just ask for some advise next couple of days . Will be back on Forum once I have made some progress.  Regards Bar.

[cam.in.head]

If it isnt pumping correctly with the 2p trick then its probably not the relay.you can check the basic operation of the relay by operating ignition switch in cranking position but with the small starter motor solenoid wire unplugged.the pump should run.i beleive it should also run for a sec on initial powering up as a priming function but mine is a 2.2 and doesnt have this feature so not 100% sure the 2 .0 has. 

Whatever happens we know for sure that we have a fuel flow/pressure issue so once thats sorted wel see what happens next

[Barillo]

Hello. Yes I agree there seems to be a fuel flow & pressure issue.  I did see the fuel pump work by using the 2p method and filling a wine bottle up from a small Jerry can sitting in the tyre space in the boot with a piece of hose connected to the pump but was not that impressed by the flow coming out into the bottle and kind of expected a more powerful and consistent flow coming out to fill the bottle up quicker but really I just don't know and I am only going by limited experience. the problem was that when i connected the fuel inlet pipe back on to then see if fuel would come out thru the return pipe via the regulator there was nothing coming out so lack of pressure or blockage at regulator it must be. To  eliminate doubt and future hassle  I ordered a new fuel pump, filter and a new relay and there's possibly a chance of getting a decent fuel regulator from someone on the forum.  Another thing I am going to do is check the continuity of the green wire that goes from dizzy cap to the relay/ecu that i believe gives that injection priming signal that you mentioned and that got me thinking about checking that area so Thanks once again. I have some other jobs to do on the Manta whilst I wait for parts such as fit some locks and cleaning up bits and pieces.  Will be back to let you know how I get on soon.  Cheers. Bar

[cam.in.head]

Hi Barry. Sorry if I’m rushing you ! . Just curious how you getting on with this .?

chris

[Barillo]

Hello Folks.   Thank y-all for your interest etc.  I have been away from the computer for a few days and was awaiting parts to arrive for the GTE. Plus my friend who can help me with cars is away on holiday so its a bit harder to get things done as soon as I would like but that's life I suppose.  I fitted the new fuel pump and filter and a new fuel relay and rigged up two auxiliary fuel tanks one being in the boot for the fuel feed and one being on the ground to catch the return fuel. I got the system working using the 2p method first and was satisfied because now it was coming out the return line through the regulator with plenty force this time  Thank God.      Next thing was to attach the black wires back onto the starter then try and fire it up and YES it did come to life!!   I was revving it away and keeping it going on the throttle but it did not sound that good.  I was hoping that after a bit of warming up it would settle into an idle but with no throttle it just dies however it can be gunned along but  the sounds I was hearing coming from the car were a bit off to say the least. Like lumpy and Knocky.  What next I asked myself? Its getting late and the neighbours were getting an earful of this GTE Grunting away.   When I tested the engine tonight there was no air filter fitted and the previous owner fitted a K&N which I had left off but its likely to be more of an issue than that.  I still need to check the condition of the spark plugs and may well need some advise on fine tuning engine timing and how to fix fuelling / Idle issues with this type of cars injection system.  Another thing I still have to do is check compression on all cylinders.  I guess my next mission now that the car will start is to make it run smooth and sit running on idle but how?   There could be many factors probably involving the injection system or electrical.   I do have a Haynes manual and will be checking it out but its much better getting advice on this forum from ones who can explain from real experience.  Any help or tips on the next stage would be really appreciated.  Thanks & Regards  Chris .   Bar

[IanMc]

Well done Barry, congratulations on this major win. I understand that there might still be things to worry about and sort out - but you still have cause to be pleased with both yourself and the car.

Just keeping adding those little wins and suddenly you will find that you have/are making some significant progress.

Good job matey   

[Barillo]

Yes Thanks Ian for that encouragement.  I am trying to understand things better by reading up on the Bosch injection system in the Haynes manual which is a very good guide to help fault find but there is just so much to take in technically and I just cannot afford to be throwing new bits and pieces at the car unless its definitely required.  I may end up biting the bullet and getting a real old time mechanic to look at it to save time and trouble but first I am going to try myself.  Regards. Bar

 

[cam.in.head]

First if you have a compression tester then you could confirm that you have good compression on all cylinders. Dont be too worried about the actual readings as such because the tester will not be calibrated and could well give totally different readings to another tester.mine have 185 on a standard 2 litre. You are looking for a resonably equal result.(say within 10-15psi) an unusually low reading could indicate problems with a ring or leaky valve or an unusually higher reading could be a valve stem oil leak causing carbon build up.

if you do not have a compression tester thou dont worry,

a very basic test  just to confirm any major issues would be a starter motor  listen test. (relay out and coil lead off to dissable actual starting)you should hear 4 distinct "compressions" as the engine spins over.any low conpression would be shown by a faster stroke .

also your issue could be ignition timing. If you have altered it or if someone before you has.with the fuel pump relay out you could do a basic "cranking" timing check with a  strobe light wired into no1 cylinder.( because your engine will not stay running at idle!)the timing line is on the front of the engine and there is a v cut out on the front pulley.(clean and mark with white paint if need be)

on an injection engine like yours for unleaded petrol the  pulley v needs to line up approx 3mm further past the line.loosen and rotate distributor to acheive this.your timing should be ok to leave like this untill you eventually run the car.fuel nowadays is crap for what these engines used to need so it may need tweaking down a little bit firther if you hear any pinking.

so to recap.....you now have a good fuel supply and return,you should now also have ignition timing set.so long as you didnt have any problems compression wise then we are getting closer. If there are no signs that anyone has had the top off and messed about with the airflow meter internal settings then i would fit the air filter ( original type in plastic box if you realy can but fit what you have if no choice).

check the air pipe for any cracks and generally check the engine for any other air leaks if you can,pipes to aux air valve,servo pipe,injector to body seal,etc.

 

Only reason i mentioned a correct air filter box is sometimes they can be a bit fussy about a freeflow type filter messing up the mixture. The engine must have its flexible pipe on it to the air flow meter and be leak free or it wont run right. 

My guess at this stage is fit what filter you have and check thr timing . See if we are any closer. Cheers barry.  

Chris

[Barillo]

Good man Chris.    I am going to print out & follow those directions to the letter and the advise about the timing settings with modern fuels is very handy.  My pal lent me a proper Gunson car compression tester which I think are pretty good plus he also owns a strobe tester and he will be back from his holiday soon so we can go through the testing/timing process together.   I am going to try and source the original air filter set up back on as I am not sure the previous persons who had this car ever had any success with the K&N kit filter because it was left just hanging off a ragged air intake pipe when I got it and had no proper mounting bracket. The first part I renewed was a new air intake pipe I can only hope and pray that they didn't mess around with any of the more complex parts. For now I will have to make do with the K&N on the airflow meter and make up a metal/rubber bracket to suit until I can source the original full air-box and fittings.  First thing will be to adjust the timing as you say and fit the filter to a makeshift bracket.  Thanks again for your interest and generosity of knowledge. Its a massive help I can assure you.  Regards. Bar

[cam.in.head]

It’s a pleasure barry