Help getting a 2.0 GTE running

[mepbowles]

On 08/05/2023 at 10:15, mantasrme said:

With a none starting car my first question is always whats been touched since it used to run. Its amazing how often someone has done something little that they don't initially mention because they don't believe that could be the issue. Like wiring in a radio, and blowing 2 fuses! Or fitting new kick panel trims, and knocking the Ecu plug loose. Or replacing the oil pump gasket and overtightening the cover so the gears were locked and the roll pin in the dizzy drive snapped . Or replacing fuel line rubbers, and swapping them around so there was no fuel feed to the rail.

Or my personal favourite was a customer replacing the fuel pipe from the tank to pump and putting the jubilee clip a little too low on the rubber pipe missing the tank nozzle and virtually completely closing off the pipe. Over about an hour there was the smallest trickle that would fill the pump and feed pipe. So the car would start and run briefly then stop and refuse to start for another hour or so. That took some finding didn't it Keith

Actually thats my question for anything thats stopped working, what have you done since then to now.

If nothings been touched at all the most likely answer is something has failed, or a wire has been chewed through by a mouse. By the way how old is the fuel in the tank? it might have lost its potency or been contaminated with water etc.

 

Apart from that i always start the sameway on none starters, i have 4 of these https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/131807893687 that i fit to make sure all 4 plugs are firing and there are no dead leads or basic ignition issues. Then can i hear the fuel pump with the 2p trick. Then check you are actually getting fuel flow at inlet pipe to the manifold . Then get a Noid light and check the ecu is actually firing the injectors.

If you haven't got 4 consistant sparks it points to an igintion issue, coil, wiring, leads, dizzycap etc etc

No fuel flow to supply pipe at T piece means bad pump, blockage, pipes crossed etc.

No flashing of the noid light shows ecu, injection loom, or wiring fault.

Of course fuel flow to injectors and injectors firing doesn't actually guarentee fuel is getting through the injectors into the engine, they might be blocked. Or the fuel might be contaminated. At this point if everythng checked out and it didn't fire i'd want to see the plugs wet with unburnt fuel. If not it would get a squirt of easy start and if we then had signs of life we know fuel isn't making it to the cylinder when the spark is, but spark is there when compression is. If you still get nothing then we have a timing issue of either ignition timing or cam timing. Assuming the cam is going around when the engine does and no one has been into the engine since it last ran i see no way cam timing moves. So then i'd be checking ignition timing.

Really the only way ignition timing goes out is if people replace the leads in the wrong order, or move/change the distributor. Otherwise if it was right it will still be right. I know a lot of people suggest timing but on an engine that did run and nothing has been changed it really shouldn't be the issue.

I realise a lot of this is basic stuff you've probably done but its always worth starting from scratch as its really easy to assume something is working because of this or that, rather than actually checking only to find out later it was the issue all along. I've learnt that the hard way over the years and wasted many an hour trying to solve things because i didn't gather all the info first.

Like 2 days trying to get my old gte to start only to find it was me who overtightened the oil pump cover and snapped the dizzy drive roll pin Admittedly that was almost 30 years ago now but its amazing how often i check the rotor arm goes around when the engine cranks with none starting cars now........

I think this is probably worth me printing out for reference.

[Jessopia74]

16 hours ago, Sutty2006 said:

An update on this. Charlie took it to a garage, (or had the garage tow it away) down the road and they got it running. They replaced a cracked injector seal. They said timing was pretty bob on. Charlie drove it home, all of 100 yards or so, where it cut out and wouldn’t run again. 
 

I’ve been back today, and gone over everything again. I have spark, condenser and points are new. Spark is powerful. I’ve got fuel. Injectors are pulsing fuel. I’ve rechecked the timing and I thing there is an issue. When the crank mark is lined up, the ball on the flywheel is about 20mm off its marker, if not more. I’ve compared this to another 2.0 engine and it looks miles off. I took the cam cover off the front of the engine and that is in a relative position to where it needs to be. However, when I turn the crank, I can can turn it at least 10-15 degrees before the cam pulley starts to turn. Again, compared with another engine, both turn at the same time. I think the chain is loose, or stretched, or both. I have more testing to do, like taking the rocker cover off to check the tension on the chain. The adjuster is tight in its hole. The plot thickens.

Sounds like something going wrong with cam chain, guides and tensioner. Could have also jumped a tooth, 12deg iirc would be 1 crank tooth? So camshaft would be extremely retarded. Going to need stripping tbh 

16 hours ago, Sutty2006 said:

An update on this. Charlie took it to a garage, (or had the garage tow it away) down the road and they got it running. They replaced a cracked injector seal. They said timing was pretty bob on. Charlie drove it home, all of 100 yards or so, where it cut out and wouldn’t run again. 
 

I’ve been back today, and gone over everything again. I have spark, condenser and points are new. Spark is powerful. I’ve got fuel. Injectors are pulsing fuel. I’ve rechecked the timing and I thing there is an issue. When the crank mark is lined up, the ball on the flywheel is about 20mm off its marker, if not more. I’ve compared this to another 2.0 engine and it looks miles off. I took the cam cover off the front of the engine and that is in a relative position to where it needs to be. However, when I turn the crank, I can can turn it at least 10-15 degrees before the cam pulley starts to turn. Again, compared with another engine, both turn at the same time. I think the chain is loose, or stretched, or both. I have more testing to do, like taking the rocker cover off to check the tension on the chain. The adjuster is tight in its hole. The plot thickens.

Sounds like something going wrong with cam chain, guides and tensioner. Could have also jumped a tooth, 12deg iirc would be 1 crank tooth? So camshaft would be extremely retarded. Going to need stripping tbh 

16 hours ago, Sutty2006 said:

An update on this. Charlie took it to a garage, (or had the garage tow it away) down the road and they got it running. They replaced a cracked injector seal. They said timing was pretty bob on. Charlie drove it home, all of 100 yards or so, where it cut out and wouldn’t run again. 
 

I’ve been back today, and gone over everything again. I have spark, condenser and points are new. Spark is powerful. I’ve got fuel. Injectors are pulsing fuel. I’ve rechecked the timing and I thing there is an issue. When the crank mark is lined up, the ball on the flywheel is about 20mm off its marker, if not more. I’ve compared this to another 2.0 engine and it looks miles off. I took the cam cover off the front of the engine and that is in a relative position to where it needs to be. However, when I turn the crank, I can can turn it at least 10-15 degrees before the cam pulley starts to turn. Again, compared with another engine, both turn at the same time. I think the chain is loose, or stretched, or both. I have more testing to do, like taking the rocker cover off to check the tension on the chain. The adjuster is tight in its hole. The plot thickens.

Sounds like something going wrong with cam chain, guides and tensioner. Could have also jumped a tooth, 12deg iirc would be 1 crank tooth? So camshaft would be extremely retarded. Going to need stripping tbh 

[Sutty2006]

There’s an echo in here 🤣

[cam.in.head]

the chain would have to be  very worn for it to jump atooth and surely if it was that bad then it would have sounded very rattly when it was actually running.  so .

sorry if you know all this  following info but worth a mention.

assuming the front crank pulley is the correct one and doesnt have a broken locating key then the timing mark (10deg i think on a gte ) should line up the flywheel ball with the crankcase pointer. the flywheel ball against the pointers actual mounting rivet denotes tdc.

at tdc the camshaft pulley marks should be "almost correct" . i say almost because even a new chain with no slack still sees the marks slightly retarded.more so on a gte due to the higher comp head (lower deck height) and allowing for some ineviteable "normal" chain stretch/ wear.        dont compare taking  up the slack by rotating the engine backwards as the chain guides and tensioner only work in forward rotation.it is possibly to jump a tooth yourself if you turn it backwards .

early engines were prone to cam lobe wear but that was only on early 2 litre carb engines with a induction hardened cam .any bad lobe wear will be obvious if cranking the engine looking at the followers. this wouldnt stop it actually running thou. just a slight misfire on the affected cylinders.

 

[Sutty2006]

4 hours ago, cam.in.head said:

the chain would have to be  very worn for it to jump atooth and surely if it was that bad then it would have sounded very rattly when it was actually running.  so .

sorry if you know all this  following info but worth a mention.

assuming the front crank pulley is the correct one and doesnt have a broken locating key then the timing mark (10deg i think on a gte ) should line up the flywheel ball with the crankcase pointer. the flywheel ball against the pointers actual mounting rivet denotes tdc.

at tdc the camshaft pulley marks should be "almost correct" . i say almost because even a new chain with no slack still sees the marks slightly retarded.more so on a gte due to the higher comp head (lower deck height) and allowing for some ineviteable "normal" chain stretch/ wear.        dont compare taking  up the slack by rotating the engine backwards as the chain guides and tensioner only work in forward rotation.it is possibly to jump a tooth yourself if you turn it backwards .

early engines were prone to cam lobe wear but that was only on early 2 litre carb engines with a induction hardened cam .any bad lobe wear will be obvious if cranking the engine looking at the followers. this wouldnt stop it actually running thou. just a slight misfire on the affected cylinders.

 

When it has ran, it was definitely rough. To the point it sounded like it was down a valve or two. 

[cam.in.head]

ok. so best to start with the basics then.

as i mentioned the crank pulley mark should be the same as the flywheel pointer mark. if it isnt then i would check that the crank pulley is located on the key correctly as a starting point. the key will be at the top for tdc the pulley mark will not be marked with tdc but the ignition timing mark (if its the  correct pulley !)

it more than likely wont be wrong or faulty but worth checking as you need a reliable starting point to time from.

 

the flywheel in theory cannot be put on wrong due to its locating bolt ( the special 'P' marked locator ) but you never know wether somebody has forced / damaged / drilled out anything to make it fit if they didnt know about the correct locating setup ?  you never know ? ? 

however if you do the timing from the from pulley it doesnt realy matter but still strange your pointer doesnt compare correctly ?

one way to check for a badly worn chain or guides first as a basic check is to turn the engine clockwise a bit to make sure the chain is loaded, remove the tensioner and insert a bar or similar into the hole to press on the tensioner pad arm. this should not go in further than the available length of the tensioner otherwise it will never tension up properly. the tensioner is spring loaded and oil fed as well.

if you find the chain badly worn then a quick check of camshaft front wheel timing marks might show if its out or slipped but next step would be to change the chain.    if the guides appear ok and you want to just change the chain first then it can be done using a split chain and joining it to the existing one and  carefully feeding it in by slowly turning the engine .

if you  are doing the guides as well then it realy is a head off and sump off job to do it by the book although it can be done by just dropping the sump and tapping out the front cover locating dowels but its notthe reccomended way !

if the chain /cam / guides timing marks are all ok then thats one issue out of the way and proven correct. you can then move on to checking other things.like compression testing ,ignition timing etc.

hope this helps a little. 

[mantasrme]

If the crank or/and flywheel marks are in doubt then pull a spark plug out. Then use either a thin wooden stick or bent piece of wire etc to touch the top of the piston as you rotate the engine. Its not the easiest on a CIH because of the entry angle of the plug hole but it will certainly tell you if either of your marks are miles out.

Also if an injector seal fixed it enough to start and drive the timing can't be out far enough to be that bad. It may not have been the injector seal as such but the moving/messing with loom and rail etc that actually did it. But either way they didn't change the timing to go from a none starting car to a driving car (however briefly).

Have you tried giving it a shot of easy start while cranking? Its a sure fire way to tell if the ignition etc is working correctly. Having fuel pressure/ injectors firing and a smell of fuel does not prove the fuel is getting into the combustion chamber at the right time in the right amount to be ignited by the spark. If more injector seals are leaking the extra air drawn in will weaken the mixture enough to make it hard to start. A squirt of Ether will get life from a car with no fuel and air leaks

[Sutty2006]

Well an update yesterday. I couldn’t spend too long on it the other day due to other commitments but Charlie persevered with the timing and got it running. Then tinkered with it to get it running smoother. I think something wasn’t right, but I can’t remember what. My memory is terrible at the moment. Think it needs fine tuning now.