Help getting a 2.0 GTE running

[Sutty2006]

Guys I’m trying to get an early GTE running. 2.0 injection engine on points, from a B1 GTE coupe. 
 

I have fuel. I have compression (175 170 170 150). I have spark. I think the timing is out, but I have set it correctly in the Haynes manual. Number one cylinder on TDC (number 4 valves rocking) and set the rotor arm to number 1 lead. It doesn’t fire. If I set it 180 degrees out, it tries very slightly to fire but won’t continue. The engine has ran, I’ve heard it. But ever since the car was moved in the garage, it hasn’t ran since. I’m struggling now, as there is no pointer for the points marker on the flywheel and my knowledge on points is zero. I have fitted electronic ignition to my B to get rid of that issue. Can anyone help me? Or better still, spend a day with a couple of members to get it running properly? 

[Jessopia74]

In all honesty, get an optical kit for it (just replaces the points). Sure a couple of club members used this kit https://simonbbc.com/categories/electronic-ignition-kits/bosch-distributors.html

[1200bandit]

You could try setting the number 1 cylinder at TDC ( spark plug out long rod In cylinder one) 

Rock the engine until you see the rod is at the top ( going up,down on the rock) 

Spark plug on the lead plug to earth, turn the dizzy until you see a spark from the plug that way you know the timing is correct Hope this makes sense 

 

[Paul Barrett]

You getting a spark sutty on cranking? 

[611]

4 hours ago, Sutty2006 said:

Guys I’m trying to get an early GTE running. 2.0 injection engine on points, from a B1 GTE coupe. 
 

I have fuel. I have compression (175 170 170 150). I have spark. I think the timing is out, but I have set it correctly in the Haynes manual. Number one cylinder on TDC (number 4 valves rocking) and set the rotor arm to number 1 lead. It doesn’t fire. If I set it 180 degrees out, it tries very slightly to fire but won’t continue. The engine has ran, I’ve heard it. But ever since the car was moved in the garage, it hasn’t ran since. I’m struggling now, as there is no pointer for the points marker on the flywheel and my knowledge on points is zero. I have fitted electronic ignition to my B to get rid of that issue. Can anyone help me? Or better still, spend a day with a couple of members to get it running properly? 

With no flywheel marker could you take the rocker off and set the timing by the cam wheel?

Not sure if this has any useful info in it. I used it to set my engine up when rebuilt.

https://www.theopelproject.com/cam-timing-info/

 

Andy

[Sutty2006]

1 hour ago, Paul Barrett said:

You getting a spark sutty on cranking? 

Yes. Getting spark. Originally the fuel pump had no power. Fixed that, dodgy contact on the coil, no power from ECU. Got that working and it would crank for ages. Then crank again, fire and cut out immediately. Now it won’t fire at all. 
 

we are currently looking for B2 electric ignition parts. So we can drop the points system into the sea where it belongs. 

[®evo03]

Just checking have you fuel pressure at rail, remember the Haynes manual has flow and return wrong, correct is,  pressure reg is the return. 

[rutts]

Try setting it up on number 4 because that is number 1 cylinder firing really. Keep telling people Cih engine is numbered from flywheel. Set crank on 10 degree after tdc check cam has dowel top centre look on dizzy there is a small groove set centre of rotor arm in line with this. Set up timing light and turn key. 

[Sutty2006]

On 26/04/2023 at 21:45, rutts said:

Try setting it up on number 4 because that is number 1 cylinder firing really. Keep telling people Cih engine is numbered from flywheel. Set crank on 10 degree after tdc check cam has dowel top centre look on dizzy there is a small groove set centre of rotor arm in line with this. Set up timing light and turn key. 

I had set it to number 4 on the rock, number 1 on compression, following the Haynes manual. When 4 is on the rock, set the rotor arm to number 1 on the dizzy cap. Or is that wrong? I’m going to head back next week for another go. 

[mantasrme]

With a none starting car my first question is always whats been touched since it used to run. Its amazing how often someone has done something little that they don't initially mention because they don't believe that could be the issue. Like wiring in a radio, and blowing 2 fuses! Or fitting new kick panel trims, and knocking the Ecu plug loose. Or replacing the oil pump gasket and overtightening the cover so the gears were locked and the roll pin in the dizzy drive snapped . Or replacing fuel line rubbers, and swapping them around so there was no fuel feed to the rail.

Or my personal favourite was a customer replacing the fuel pipe from the tank to pump and putting the jubilee clip a little too low on the rubber pipe missing the tank nozzle and virtually completely closing off the pipe. Over about an hour there was the smallest trickle that would fill the pump and feed pipe. So the car would start and run briefly then stop and refuse to start for another hour or so. That took some finding didn't it Keith

Actually thats my question for anything thats stopped working, what have you done since then to now.

If nothings been touched at all the most likely answer is something has failed, or a wire has been chewed through by a mouse. By the way how old is the fuel in the tank? it might have lost its potency or been contaminated with water etc.

 

Apart from that i always start the sameway on none starters, i have 4 of these https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/131807893687 that i fit to make sure all 4 plugs are firing and there are no dead leads or basic ignition issues. Then can i hear the fuel pump with the 2p trick. Then check you are actually getting fuel flow at inlet pipe to the manifold . Then get a Noid light and check the ecu is actually firing the injectors.

If you haven't got 4 consistant sparks it points to an igintion issue, coil, wiring, leads, dizzycap etc etc

No fuel flow to supply pipe at T piece means bad pump, blockage, pipes crossed etc.

No flashing of the noid light shows ecu, injection loom, or wiring fault.

Of course fuel flow to injectors and injectors firing doesn't actually guarentee fuel is getting through the injectors into the engine, they might be blocked. Or the fuel might be contaminated. At this point if everythng checked out and it didn't fire i'd want to see the plugs wet with unburnt fuel. If not it would get a squirt of easy start and if we then had signs of life we know fuel isn't making it to the cylinder when the spark is, but spark is there when compression is. If you still get nothing then we have a timing issue of either ignition timing or cam timing. Assuming the cam is going around when the engine does and no one has been into the engine since it last ran i see no way cam timing moves. So then i'd be checking ignition timing.

Really the only way ignition timing goes out is if people replace the leads in the wrong order, or move/change the distributor. Otherwise if it was right it will still be right. I know a lot of people suggest timing but on an engine that did run and nothing has been changed it really shouldn't be the issue.

I realise a lot of this is basic stuff you've probably done but its always worth starting from scratch as its really easy to assume something is working because of this or that, rather than actually checking only to find out later it was the issue all along. I've learnt that the hard way over the years and wasted many an hour trying to solve things because i didn't gather all the info first.

Like 2 days trying to get my old gte to start only to find it was me who overtightened the oil pump cover and snapped the dizzy drive roll pin Admittedly that was almost 30 years ago now but its amazing how often i check the rotor arm goes around when the engine cranks with none starting cars now........

[Sutty2006]

So the car was running before. We had it running long enough to assess that it was lumpy and a bit baggy so I needed to go back with a timing light and my open top rocker cover to check valve clearances. 
 

charlie moved the car out of his garage then back in over his pit on the other side. Then it wouldn’t start. 
 

I initially checked for spark on one plug, nice strong spark. Tick. 
 

I then checked the fuel pump. It wasn’t working. I had no power to it on crank. I checked the fuse, and checked for power at the fuse board, nothing. I then fiddled around with the coil wires and the pump started working. It would crank but still not start. We chucked a can of fresh fuel in “just in case” and it made no difference. Sometimes it would cough and splutter, or fire for a second then die. Turning the dizzy would make it worse, so it wouldnt fire at all. That’s when I went back to basics. I got number 1 to TDC on compression and found the rotor arm pointing to number 4. I swapped it all round but still couldn’t get it to even fire this time. I then lost my head, I had a headache and I needed to leave for other commitments. I will hunt for my lightning hose lights (they’re around somewhere) 

 

the engines physical timing hasn’t been touched other than turning the dizzy 180 “incase it’s wrong” then back again. 
 

I can smell fuel in the engine bay slightly, and the plugs have been getting wet so I know it’s getting fuel into the combustion chamber. When I next go back I’ll clean all the plugs and recheck the timing and sparkling order. 

[Trooker]

4 hours ago, mantasrme said:

With a none starting car my first question is always whats been touched since it used to run. Its amazing how often someone has done something little that they don't initially mention because they don't believe that could be the issue. Like wiring in a radio, and blowing 2 fuses! Or fitting new kick panel trims, and knocking the Ecu plug loose. Or replacing the oil pump gasket and overtightening the cover so the gears were locked and the roll pin in the dizzy drive snapped . Or replacing fuel line rubbers, and swapping them around so there was no fuel feed to the rail.

Or my personal favourite was a customer replacing the fuel pipe from the tank to pump and putting the jubilee clip a little too low on the rubber pipe missing the tank nozzle and virtually completely closing off the pipe. Over about an hour there was the smallest trickle that would fill the pump and feed pipe. So the car would start and run briefly then stop and refuse to start for another hour or so. That took some finding didn't it Keith

Actually thats my question for anything thats stopped working, what have you done since then to now.

If nothings been touched at all the most likely answer is something has failed, or a wire has been chewed through by a mouse. By the way how old is the fuel in the tank? it might have lost its potency or been contaminated with water etc.

 

Apart from that i always start the sameway on none starters, i have 4 of these https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/131807893687 that i fit to make sure all 4 plugs are firing and there are no dead leads or basic ignition issues. Then can i hear the fuel pump with the 2p trick. Then check you are actually getting fuel flow at inlet pipe to the manifold . Then get a Noid light and check the ecu is actually firing the injectors.

If you haven't got 4 consistant sparks it points to an igintion issue, coil, wiring, leads, dizzycap etc etc

No fuel flow to supply pipe at T piece means bad pump, blockage, pipes crossed etc.

No flashing of the noid light shows ecu, injection loom, or wiring fault.

Of course fuel flow to injectors and injectors firing doesn't actually guarentee fuel is getting through the injectors into the engine, they might be blocked. Or the fuel might be contaminated. At this point if everythng checked out and it didn't fire i'd want to see the plugs wet with unburnt fuel. If not it would get a squirt of easy start and if we then had signs of life we know fuel isn't making it to the cylinder when the spark is, but spark is there when compression is. If you still get nothing then we have a timing issue of either ignition timing or cam timing. Assuming the cam is going around when the engine does and no one has been into the engine since it last ran i see no way cam timing moves. So then i'd be checking ignition timing.

Really the only way ignition timing goes out is if people replace the leads in the wrong order, or move/change the distributor. Otherwise if it was right it will still be right. I know a lot of people suggest timing but on an engine that did run and nothing has been changed it really shouldn't be the issue.

I realise a lot of this is basic stuff you've probably done but its always worth starting from scratch as its really easy to assume something is working because of this or that, rather than actually checking only to find out later it was the issue all along. I've learnt that the hard way over the years and wasted many an hour trying to solve things because i didn't gather all the info first.

Like 2 days trying to get my old gte to start only to find it was me who overtightened the oil pump cover and snapped the dizzy drive roll pin Admittedly that was almost 30 years ago now but its amazing how often i check the rotor arm goes around when the engine cranks with none starting cars now........

This should be pinned at the top of the Help forum. 

[berni]

Don't understand y it was taken apart when it ran fine b4.

Did any1 bother to check the green pulse wire from ecu> coil>injectors.? 🤢

[Sutty2006]

17 hours ago, berni said:

Don't understand y it was taken apart when it ran fine b4.

Did any1 bother to check the green pulse wire from ecu> coil>injectors.? 🤢

It wasn’t taken apart, it just stopped running. I’ve had to mess with the timing as I’m 95.627% certain it’s wrong. 

[mantasrme]

When it's a little odd like that i would swap out the fuel pump relay, they can play up in an assortment of ways and have some very odd side effects if a little wonky. Including messing with the latching from starting circuit to running circuit for the ecu.

Then i'd swap in another ecu. Again they can play up in a variety of ways for no apparent reason. I've always had spares of both in the car when running a standard manta injection system, i also normally have an ignition module and spare coil, dizzy cap and rotor arm.

Your first goal should be to get it back to running in its lumpy state. No point trying to make it run better until you solve why it stopped running. Fix that first and then you have a base point to start playing with timing to get it better etc

[Sutty2006]

I’m not sure on the injection side of things. This is a very early LHD GTE B1 on injection. I was shocked to see it on points! I’ll have to look at what fuel pump relay it has and it’s ECU, because if they are different to our GTE b2 system, replacing them may be hard. 

[cam.in.head]

they are different in many ways to the later system. injectors,resistor block and pump relay for a start. no doubt the ecu will be different, 

i would say confirm ignition first.

the flywheel should have a timing pointer visible (just) under the manifolds .the pointer denotes ignition timing point and the actual rivet holding the pointer on denotes tdc.

if you wanted to be sure you could remove the rocker cover,rotate engine watching inlet valve open,then close on cylinder one ,then with plug number 1 out watch for the piston coming up. when its almost there look for the ignition timing mark.

rotor should now be pointing to the number 1 lead. that proves its not 180 deg out. then time with a light to the timing mark.

usual checks first to points condition and gap. replace condenser if you have one spare and thorough check of arm,cap and leads. 

then  move on to fuel system, cannot give any pointers to swapping parts here thou but the haynes manta book does have a circuit diagram on page 276. .it looks like you could bypass the relay by applying 12v to terminal 88b and 88d but id study the diag closely.   

[Sutty2006]

I have seen the ball on the flywheel through the hole in the casting however the pointer on the casting is missing. 

[cam.in.head]

the ball will line up with the rivet hole then. this will be tdc. timing on a injection would be up to 10 deg advance but even timing up to the tdc should get the engine to run at least .

[Rick-Manta]

I hope this doesn't come across as teaching granny to suck eggs type of thing, but as you said you've not had much to do with points, are the points new and have the gap set correctly? You can still see a spark at the points breaker and the plugs, but would be weak and perhaps not enough to fire at the lower compression of starting cranks. 

That is weird it having a points distributer, as even the carb'ed 2.0S has electronic ignition, so maybe someone fitted an older component to it?

[cam.in.head]

 i read this in somebody elses post a while back and was too suprised at points on an injection setup but apparently early injecton cars had them. points were only replaced in carbed cars by electronic around 81/82 as well.

however.a points system is a good setup when done correctly and woudnt leave you stranded anywhere as much as an electronic system could do if a component failed. a clean set of contacts gapped at 20 thou with a good condenser should work well for many miles. 

 

[Jessopia74]

1 hour ago, cam.in.head said:

 i read this in somebody elses post a while back and was too suprised at points on an injection setup but apparently early injecton cars had them. points were only replaced in carbed cars by electronic around 81/82 as well.

however.a points system is a good setup when done correctly and woudnt leave you stranded anywhere as much as an electronic system could do if a component failed. a clean set of contacts gapped at 20 thou with a good condenser should work well for many miles. 

 

I believe that L-Jetronic will have points, but all LE-Jetronic should come with the electronic setup. 
‘It’s more likely that it was either pinched for another car or it broke and they could get the points one cheaper so went with that option.

[cam.in.head]

i suppose theoretically it wouldnt matter either way.

the ecu will be looking for a trigger signal telling it when to fire. the green wire will do  this (as it will run a rev counter the same )

i do remember a 79 senator 3 litre having the early jetronic with resistor block and electronic ignition ? .

[Jessopia74]

42 minutes ago, cam.in.head said:

i suppose theoretically it wouldnt matter either way.

the ecu will be looking for a trigger signal telling it when to fire. the green wire will do  this (as it will run a rev counter the same )

i do remember a 79 senator 3 litre having the early jetronic with resistor block and electronic ignition ? .

Yes, L-Jetronic has the resistor pack mate. And your right, it should not matter, however the fuel relay Aldo uses the ignition ‘pulse’ to take over the fuel pump run after start (start to run key position =), where as the earlier system has a trigger from the AFM 

[Sutty2006]

An update on this. Charlie took it to a garage, (or had the garage tow it away) down the road and they got it running. They replaced a cracked injector seal. They said timing was pretty bob on. Charlie drove it home, all of 100 yards or so, where it cut out and wouldn’t run again. 
 

I’ve been back today, and gone over everything again. I have spark, condenser and points are new. Spark is powerful. I’ve got fuel. Injectors are pulsing fuel. I’ve rechecked the timing and I thing there is an issue. When the crank mark is lined up, the ball on the flywheel is about 20mm off its marker, if not more. I’ve compared this to another 2.0 engine and it looks miles off. I took the cam cover off the front of the engine and that is in a relative position to where it needs to be. However, when I turn the crank, I can can turn it at least 10-15 degrees before the cam pulley starts to turn. Again, compared with another engine, both turn at the same time. I think the chain is loose, or stretched, or both. I have more testing to do, like taking the rocker cover off to check the tension on the chain. The adjuster is tight in its hole. The plot thickens.