Aftermarket cam

[Nivlek2525]

Hi all, 

I've got my gte engine running reasonably well but it has a really noisy top end. It's there as you rev it but a little quieter at high rpm but gets noisy again as you come of the throttle. 

If I can work out how to share the sound file I will. 

I changed all the chain guides etc when I refreshed the engine but didn't change the chain so could be a very slack chain or worn hydraulic tappets. I did strip and clean them when I had it all a part.

As always I'm on a budget so wondered if this cam would be similar to a GTE cam? I've enquired with the seller but they don't know.  If its something like the original sr or gte cam, at this stage, that would do.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/395138086763?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=25FCgdniThe&sssrc=4429486&ssuid=bCQaVNHOQOG&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

I just need to get the car running now. 

Cheers 

Kelvin.

Edited January 26 by Nivlek2525
Typos

[611]

If you do need a new chain, i have a brand new one that i dont need. Let me know and we can work out a price.

Hydraulic tappets are usually quieter than solid ones. Did they have any wear on them? and did you do the adjustment of them for hydraulic as its different than solid.

 

Be good to hear the sound file you have.

Andy

[Nivlek2525]

22 minutes ago, 611 said:

If you do need a new chain, i have a brand new one that i dont need. Let me know and we can work out a price.

Hydraulic tappets are usually quieter than solid ones. Did they have any wear on them? and did you do the adjustment of them for hydraulic as its different than solid.

 

Be good to hear the sound file you have.

Andy

Hi Andy

Hope you are well.

The hydraulic tappets looked OK. They were solid when I took them out but I stripped, cleaned and soaked in oil and they moved freely when reassembled with a decent amount of spring behind them. I also did the adjustment procedure. Loosen off and then tighten up 360 deg in 90 increments.

A mechanic mate took a look (listen) today and he thought it sounded like an old corsa with worn chain but wasn't a  100% sure. I thought if I replace cam, lifters and chain I should rule out most thing and cam in the link seemed like a good deal for 8 lifters and a cam.

Thanks for the offer of the chain, that would be handy. I'll drop you a message.

K.

Edited January 26 by Nivlek2525
Typo

[Jessopia74]

It will be a 2.0s cam, the GTE one would be marked as an 20e.

Not much in them anyway, and a new cam will definitely be a huge improvement over a warm one. But a noisy top end might mean 2things. I wonder if someone in the past has already put a performance cam in it, anything more than very mild (like the original 1.9 profile) woukd need solid lifters. So check it first. Should have something stamped on the end of the cam (gear side) But if you are needing to replace your cam, I woukd definitely get an E variant 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/134822439913

 

 

1 minute ago, Nivlek2525 said:

Hi Andy

Hope you are well.

The hydraulic tappets looked OK. They were solid when I took them out but I stripped, cleaned and soaked in oil and the moved freely when reassembled with a decent amount of spring behind them. I also did the adjustment procedure. Loosen of and the tighten up 360 deg in 90 increments.

A mechanic mate took a look (listen) today and he thought it sounded like an old corsa with worn chain wasn't a hundred 100 sure. I thought if I replace cam, lifters and chain I should rule out most thing and cam in the link seemed like a good deal for 8 lifters and a cam.

Thanks for the offer of the chain, that would be handy. I'll drop you a message.

K.

Ah, I don’t recognise this “Loosen of and the tighten up 360 deg in 90 increments.‘

They are adjusted with engine running, just tighten until they go quiet. Perhaps they are now wound down too much 

[Nivlek2525]

4 minutes ago, Jessopia74 said:

It will be a 2.0s cam, the GTE one would be marked as an 20e.

Not much in them anyway, and a new cam will definitely be a huge improvement over a warm one. But a noisy top end might mean 2things. I wonder if someone in the past has already put a performance cam in it, anything more than very mild (like the original 1.9 profile) woukd need solid lifters. So check it first. Should have something stamped on the end of the cam (gear side) But if you are needing to replace your cam, I woukd definitely get an E variant 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/134822439913

 

 

Ah, I don’t recognise this “Loosen of and the tighten up 360 deg in 90 increments.‘

They are adjusted with engine running, just tighten until they go quiet. Perhaps they are now wound down too much 

Hi Jess,

Good to here from you. 

That's the procedure from the Haynes manual which I've followed before and seems to be ok.

The cam in it has a gm part number so I'm assuming it's the original cam and lifters. Although I moved them into the 2.4 head as the 2.0 head was leaded and pretty bad.

I'd prefer the 20E cam in your link, but budget probably only stretches to the one I listed and if it will work, I might give it a go.

Cheers 

K 

12 minutes ago, Jessopia74 said:

It will be a 2.0s cam, the GTE one would be marked as an 20e.

Not much in them anyway, and a new cam will definitely be a huge improvement over a warm one. But a noisy top end might mean 2things. I wonder if someone in the past has already put a performance cam in it, anything more than very mild (like the original 1.9 profile) woukd need solid lifters. So check it first. Should have something stamped on the end of the cam (gear side) But if you are needing to replace your cam, I woukd definitely get an E variant 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/134822439913

 

 

Ah, I don’t recognise this “Loosen of and the tighten up 360 deg in 90 increments.‘

They are adjusted with engine running, just tighten until they go quiet. Perhaps they are now wound down too much 

Loosen until it rattles, tighten until it goes quiet and then turn another full turn. 

Always terrifies me on that extra full turn!

49 minutes ago, 611 said:

If you do need a new chain, i have a brand new one that i dont need. Let me know and we can work out a price.

Hydraulic tappets are usually quieter than solid ones. Did they have any wear on them? and did you do the adjustment of them for hydraulic as its different than solid.

 

Be good to hear the sound file you have.

Andy

 

PTT-20240121-WA0010.opus

[Nivlek2525]

15 minutes ago, Nivlek2525 said:

Hi Jess,

Good to here from you. 

That's the procedure from the Haynes manual which I've followed before and seems to be ok.

The cam in it has a gm part number so I'm assuming it's the original cam and lifters. Although I moved them into the 2.4 head as the 2.0 head was leaded and pretty bad.

I'd prefer the 20E cam in your link, but budget probably only stretches to the one I listed and if it will work, I might give it a go.

Cheers 

K 

Loosen until it rattles, tighten until it goes quiet and then turn another full turn. 

Always terrifies me on that extra full turn!

 

PTT-20240121-WA0010.opus

This is from a WhatsApp message so may not play.

[Jessopia74]

14 minutes ago, Nivlek2525 said:

This is from a WhatsApp message so may not play.

No iwont mate.

I probably have a 2.4E cam and followers you could have, but those again are more for low end torque rather than ‘sporty’

have a read of this thread 

but this is the cam timing table so you can compare them all 

Edited January 26 by Jessopia74

[Nivlek2525]

Sorry about the grime...its a well thumbed version.

[Jessopia74]

Yeah, perhaps it’s the way you interpreted it’s operation that threw me, but that is correct and pretty much what I was getting at ‘with engine running’ 

If you take rocker cover off though, then there should be no loose rockers as the hydraulic followers should be pumped up even when off the lobe. Final thing to check is 100% make sure your getting good oil supply to the head ( seen the oil feed get blocked off on the between block and head before)

[Nivlek2525]

4 minutes ago, Jessopia74 said:

No iwont mate.

I probably have a 2.4E cam and followers you could have, but those again are more for low end torque rather than ‘sporty’

Cheers Jess,

If that £60 is something like standard and is effectively new then I'm tempted to go with it. Many thanks for the offer tho.

I did think the 2.4 valves.might be hitting the pistons,  but I did check with plasticine before I assembled it and I still have decent compression so I'm assuming valves arent hitting pistons. 

Are new gte engines still available from the vauxhall dealers😜

2 minutes ago, Jessopia74 said:

Yeah, perhaps it’s the way you interpreted it’s operation that threw me, but that is correct and pretty much what I was getting at ‘with engine running’ 

If you take rocker cover off though, then there should be no loose rockers as the hydraulic followers should be pumped up even when off the lobe. Final thing to check is 100% make sure your getting good oil supply to the head ( seen the oil feed get blocked off on the between block and head before)

Yes got good oil pressure and the top of the engine is getting plenty of oil. There seems to be oil around the lifters so they should be getting a decent supply and there's nothing lose even when valves are fully closed.

[Jessopia74]

It’s close enough as a cam profile that you’re not like to notice any minor top end bhp. Hell might even work better with the larger valves anyway . But as you say £60 is a good price.

[Nivlek2525]

Early start this morning.  

I've taken the timing chain cover off and checked all the guides etc. Still intact so nothing has fallen off. I re timed the cam, not convinced it wasn't a tooth off. With the tensioner off I can rotate the crank freely without the chain catching. I.e. it hangs below the bottom sprocket....does this sound right?

I've used a cable tie to keep timing and pull the chain tight. I've used a bolt hole on the block and the same on on the chain cover as a reference and with the tensioner right out it would only just touch the chain. 

When I compare what I have to the Haynes manual, if the Haynes manual is anywhere near accurate the my chain would appear to be quite a bit longer.

 

My tensioner would not be compressed like that. 

Any thoughts anyone?

Cheers,

K 

[Nivlek2525]

11 hours ago, 611 said:

If you do need a new chain, i have a brand new one that i dont need. Let me know and we can work out a price.

Hydraulic tappets are usually quieter than solid ones. Did they have any wear on them? and did you do the adjustment of them for hydraulic as its different than solid.

 

Be good to hear the sound file you have.

Andy

Hi Andy, 

I've tried to send you a message about the chain but it's saying you can't receive messages. Could you try to drop me a PM please? 

Many thanks.

K.

[611]

2 hours ago, Nivlek2525 said:

Hi Andy, 

I've tried to send you a message about the chain but it's saying you can't receive messages. Could you try to drop me a PM please? 

Many thanks.

K.

That's a bit strange, maybe the inbox is full. I will take a look later and drop you a message.

I will also dig out the chain and send you a pic.

 

Andy

 

[Jessopia74]

With front cover on and all guides  in place (and the shelf for the cam wheel), the slack is just enough to alloy the cam gear to sit in the shelf but not drop the chain enough so that it was off the crank gear. So if you can rotate the crank without it engaging the chain then there is an issue. (Cover needs to be on ofc for the guides to be in the correct situation )

With cover off, ofc you missing not only the guides, but tensioner, so without that, then yes the chain would hang lower enough for the chain to disengage. This is correct and if your cam timing is out how to get the chain back onto the cam wheel properly. Remember it’s best to move the cam gear in relation to the chain to get the marks to lift up. I recall helping a friend who had done it on the cam and it was always going to be out due to the ratio of cam to crank gear teeth. 

[cam.in.head]

yes it sounds like the chain is a little worn / stretched.your noise on revving and falling revs sounds to confirm this ? a worn cam or follower is more of a constant tap .( in most cases) but a new gte cam with all new followers is a fortune anyway.and the later cams are not exactly wellknown for wearing out unlike the very early 2 litre "S" cams were.

there are various ways to check if this is the case .

when in place and tensioned up etc you shoudnt be able to "lift " the chain up off the top sprocket by much.

the tensioner plunger should start to be felt ( or seen from the top) to begin compressing well before its thread runs out as you screw it in.

the top 2 bolts in the top sprocket will IDEALY be totally level with a perfect chain on an S engine at TDC as seen in the diagram but this is rarely the case 100% even when new. the bolts will always be slightly tilted to the left .this is much more apparent with a worn chain as the theoretical length between lower sprocket and top sprocket on the pulling side gets longer .thats on an aforementioned "S" engine . a gte head "E" is basically a skimmed version of an "S" head so this length is worse even from new ! plus any wear in either sprockets teeth will add to this further.

some aftermarket headgaskets can be thinner than oem adding further again still !( as can head skims ) it all lowers the head meaning the crank needs to turn further round to pull the cam into the correct place !

a new chain will bring these alignments back to nearer what they should be .if yours is now in bits then a full whole chain can be fitted. if it wasnt then a split- link chain could have been used. 

and finally . all the original later gm cams had the same casting number on R90090582 GC0902 as they were the same basic casting. the "S cam would be stamped on the far end with a K or A.

the gte "E" cam would be stamped with a R.

the gte and s cams are basically the same profile in every way anyway but with a 2 degree advance.so in theory a gte cam in an  

 S head should make the timing more perfect than it would be with its correct cam !

[611]

I have hydraulic lifter in mine. Its a high performance one from ENEM with quite a bit of lift and they seem to run hydraulic lifters on all their performance cams.

And its way quieter than the old fast road kent one with solid lifters 🙂

If that cam is any good it looks like a bargain at that price!

 

[cam.in.head]

the ebay 2.0S cam is definately a good price and probably worth buying even if just for the new hydraulic lifters. but seeing as its an S cam and possibly going into a E engine then it may be a little retarded(2deg) for that engine to be prefect although it will definately run it ? albeit maybee not give any benefit over the proper one.

you could always obtain an adjustable top wheel to fit an S cam and then align it correctly. ( or try the std top wheel in a different orientation with a redrilled dowel hole to see if it lines up straighter ?

problem is you cant swap the cam with the head on anyway so i would try a new chain first.

[Jessopia74]

1 hour ago, cam.in.head said:

the ebay 2.0S cam is definately a good price and probably worth buying even if just for the new hydraulic lifters. but seeing as its an S cam and possibly going into a E engine then it may be a little retarded(2deg) for that engine to be prefect although it will definately run it ? albeit maybee not give any benefit over the proper one.

you could always obtain an adjustable top wheel to fit an S cam and then align it correctly. ( or try the std top wheel in a different orientation with a redrilled dowel hole to see if it lines up straighter ?

problem is you cant swap the cam with the head on anyway so i would try a new chain first.

I have changed the cam with head on np. It’s fiddly and needs rad out etc, but fairly easy. Just need to be careful and use something to help support cam when lifting through bearings. 

[H-400]

I did it also, but you need to fit a chain lock to open the timing chain so you can remove the cam sprocket. I needed also to rememove a headbolt, is already years ago...Thought I had to lift the engine to pass the lock of the bonnet.

[Nivlek2525]

Afternoon all.

Little update. I dry fitted the timing cover and measured the distance from the plunger hole to the guide when it's up against the chain. This distance is slightly more, a mm or so, than than the length of the plunger when fully extended, therefore I don't think there's any tension in the current chain. 

Andy has sorted me out with a new piper chain and I've bought the ebay cam just in case. 

I'd rather not remove the head again but I will if I have to. I think I can get the timing cover back on by dropping the sump. 

Plan is new chain first. If that quietens it down I may just stop at that. If I think it needs lifters done as well then I'll just put the whole cam in I think even if it's not quite right. I've no idea of the history of the current cam but it came off an early engine number engine so it will have some miles on it.

I do have a 2.4 cam but no idea if it's any good. It cam in the 2.4 head without any lifters and I didn't want to mix and match. 

I might take some photos and you can let me know.

Thanks again for all the reply, really is appreciated. 

K.

[H-400]

Hi Kelvin, I got some measurements about the chain tensioner in an Opel manual. Will scan it and post it, maybe not very usefull but the more we know...

[Nivlek2525]

3 hours ago, cam.in.head said:

the ebay 2.0S cam is definately a good price and probably worth buying even if just for the new hydraulic lifters. but seeing as its an S cam and possibly going into a E engine then it may be a little retarded(2deg) for that engine to be prefect although it will definately run it ? albeit maybee not give any benefit over the proper one.

you could always obtain an adjustable top wheel to fit an S cam and then align it correctly. ( or try the std top wheel in a different orientation with a redrilled dowel hole to see if it lines up straighter ?

problem is you cant swap the cam with the head on anyway so i would try a new chain first.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/254016163109?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=Jf6wyxtgQu6&sssrc=4429486&ssuid=bCQaVNHOQOG&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

I always liked this as a seemingly simple way to adjust the timing. Although I think I have enough cans of worms open at the moment.

I read about them on the opelgt site I think. You basically slot the bolt holes as you suggest but drill out the locating pin hole at the same centre but to the diameter of these pins.  I think you drill from the back with a flat bottom drill to stop them falling out.

Then insert the appropriate offset dowel hole. 

Feels like it should work....maybe I'll give it a go one day.

K.

3 minutes ago, H-400 said:

Hi Kelvin, I got some measurements about the chain tensioner in an Opel manual. Will scan it and post it, maybe not very usefull but the more we know...

Hi Herman,

I hope you are well.

That would be great. The first thing my friend asked (he used to be a BMW mechanic) was, do you know how much slack there should be.....

As you say, the more we know, the more we all benefit.

If I can just get it running right, it's ready for an MOT (we'll, once I sort a windscreen) and then I can start using it and discovering all the other hidden problems.

K.

[H-400]

Above the tool used by Opel shops to check the chain/ tensioner/guides. Screw the tool in the timing house and screw the piston until the chain has got his tension. Measure the distance X . Measure the same distance on your chain tensioner and it must be at least 2mm longer than X. If less the chain is stretched. 

In the same text they mention you can fix that problem by cutting of the contactsurface on a lathe, but I'm not a fan of this. I would fit a new chain with new guides. The tool looks to be made of an old used tensioner but I used once a long bolt with a nut & washer, works fine

[cam.in.head]

you CAN change a cam with the head on but it means removing one ormore headbolts but i dint think there will be anything wrong with your cam . it sounds like you have definately got a  stretched chain ( or tensioner arm worn out !) so a new chain should sort it. dropping the sump is the only real way to get the timing casing back on with the head in place but you will need to remove the locating dowels to allow it to go in and up ,tightening the two 6mm allen bolts in the head to pull it up in place whilst / along with the front ones to align it and get the dowels back in