Cavalier MK1 GL Saloon (Automatic)

[Jessopia74]

2 hours ago, cam.in.head said:

yes i would 100% agree .definately from a carb engine which im pretty sure cf engines were( dont know if they were low comp ?) ( or as mentioned carlton 83-86 with carb).

carb distributor for carlton .bosch 0237020042 JHFU4

(injection one  0237020040 JHFU4)

this should make it the perfect choice for your engine .to be honest a gte one will also fit and work. just may be different curves for the injection ?

 

It’s just the advance as vacuum is usually a little lower, but the full advance won’t hurt. Most old cars can easily run more advance now as although fuel might have a little methanol in it, it’s still far superior to what was on offer when CIH was released with mix if 3* and 4* and how garages was not properly audited 🤣

[mepbowles]

Thanks for the suggestions. I decided it's probably easiest to address everyone separately as you were all kin enough to reply.

It's a 19S currently and I do like it's not a standard 2.0. I guess it'll come down to ease and money. I don't have crazy funds to throw at it but I guess £300-1000 isn't awful, the lower the better 😁. I'd also probably end up storing the 1.9 parts I don't use so perhaps that may salway me. I really just want reliability and fuel efficiency with the occasional lead foot moment.

1. No idea how easy it would be to find a p2e head for not crazy money and whether it would be compatible with everything I already have on my 1.9 (exhaust manifold, spare gasket set etc.). 

2. Yeah, I was just sounding it out as things can quickly add up at £20/cylinder. In the long run it's nothing though so better to do it right.

3. Here's hoping

4. Understood, I might just do the head a little then, nothing wrong with a little more low end torque. I do find it fascinating I studied engines a little at university but it can go so deep with the variables.

5. By bottom end do you mean crank and pistons? I thought the longer throw wouldn't fit in a 1.9 block I less you meant a full short engine which surely costs a fair amount. If it's about a better crankshaft I can probably find a 1.6 crank quite easily and get that balanced for an improvement 

6. Another area where I'm a little clueless. I'm happy with current power so would only really change if it meant less fuel consumption without too much of a power hit but not sure a 1.6 cam would work well and clueless when it comes to degrees and fast road etc. I do have a NOS spare but I'd have to check the part number to see what it is.

7-8.  Yeah ive seen some prices and it seems they probably require a dip to do machining but I was quoted £150 to dip a block and £60 for a head. If I can clean the block myself tlit might save some money.

You mentioned 2.2 short engines being lead free. I thought it was just the valve seats that needed doing.

 

Also, these are the prices from my nearest machine shop. I feel like I could get it cheaper if I travel an hour or two but I'm pretty clueless.

Dip and clean block - £150-00

Crack test block - £60-00

Rebore block - £150-00

Hone block - £70-00

Reface block - £60-00

 

Regrind crank - £120-00

 

Overhaul head - shim - £370-00

                        Hydraulic - £270-00

Lead free - £25-00 per seat

 

All prices are + VAT and do not include any parts

 

On 08/05/2024 at 22:35, Jessopia74 said:

1: try and buy an unleaded head, if not then it’s new harder seats. Or just use additives in your fuel. 
 

2: new rings should be a given, they are relatively cheap. Rings wear faster than your bores. New Rings, gapped properly and light honed fire will be fine. You most likely won’t need new pistons, unless the block is very warm 

3. Its is nice to have rather than necessary. The CIH does not rev high enough (top end limited) . Maybe your crank just needs a polish rather than re grind.

4. Don’t deck the block unless absolutely necessary. Taking a little off. The head is fine even if it does not need it as a little CR bump is instant low end torque. Max 20 thousands

5. Consider buying a good 2.2 or 2.4 bottom end would give instant results and potentially be the cheaper option than having all the work done.

6. Keep followers matched to the lobe! But cams are a wearing item, especially in early engines that don’t have a raised tube to keep them from oil starvation. A good used SR or GTE cam is nice little upgrade. But check your lobes wear against each other and the followers. Quick easy check is vernier Caliper on peak lift of lobe 

7. Engine refurbishment should gave a parts washer, Hot chemical that can’t be beat. Usually very cheap to get your bit done.

8. As point 7. They should clean it, then tell them to wash it after to get rid of swarf. Can’t say I have ever known a place not do that 

Seriously consider asking for a good GTE head and a 2.2 short motor/engine etc as they will already have lead free. 
In all cases when you got your engine this stripped, minimum is new piston rings! 

It's 

On 09/05/2024 at 12:12, cam.in.head said:

all good advice above from jess and will result in a great engine . wether all of that is actually needed realy depends on how the engine was running before . i wouldnt have thought any crankshaft work or pistons would be needed at that mileage but as i mentioned earlier it depends on how its been looked after . if you want to change the rings then it depends on how much of a wear ridge is at the top of the bore to wether you fit stepped top ring or have the lip removed . (i personally would refit the originals unless out of spec)i assume its a 2 litre so an unleaded lead from a late gte (marked P2. from a carlto 1985, correct ideal head or a gte P2E head although this is just a skimmed version of a carb head to give the higher cr)

be fitted.or if its anything else then you will need hardened exhaust seats.

i wouldnt skim anything unless absolutely nexessary as you dont want to change the cr too much. ( hard enough getting them to run perfect on modern fuel as it is !)

a gte cam may well help a little to bring the calve timing back to standard if theres any wear in the chain or if there has ever been a skim ( a gte cam is just an identical carburettor cam with a few degrees advance . no difference in duration or lift)

and finally an electronic ignition system is a good upgrade afterwards. people fit a gte dissy which will work ok but the correct one is from a carlton 83-86 with a carb. very  rare to find thou !

It's a 1.9 so no idea what gaskets I would need if using a gte or Carlton head and what else might change and why. I don't imagine Carlton heads are too common though probably not too expensive either. H

 

I don't think there's much wear to the chain and I don't think there's ever been a skim. I think it's the first time it's been opened up and I'd like to do as many little improvements as I can do I don't have to open it up again for another 80-90k. But I do appreciate your thoughts as I don't want to just throw money at it needlessly.

 

I don't understand what you're saying about the Carlton dizzy Vs the gte dizzy and why not the original 1.9 one?

On 09/05/2024 at 14:09, Jessopia74 said:

Good find. That looks to me like it’s from a Carb engine, as the fuel pump cam lobe is used ! 
you would need an amplifier and the loom. https://www.edelschmiede.com/shop/Kabelsatz-Kabelbaum-Transistorzuendung-Opel-4-Zyl-cih-20S-20E

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/355519630308
 

 

On 09/05/2024 at 13:40, Trooker said:

@cam.in.head no i.d. numbers on this dizzy listing - can you tell by looking?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/335385036729

Is this the Carlton dizzy that cam in head mentioned? I still don't understand the need for it over the stock one.

Edited May 10 by mepbowles

[Jessopia74]

With regards to changing your distributor from mechanical points to an electronic version. It’s about the consistency of the spark energy and timing. 
Probably better if you read up on a few sites of the advantages as it might help with the different explanations if you are really interested. However, it would be best single fit and forget upgrade that would definitely help with fuel economy if that if your concern.

The unleaded aspect of the engine is correct in the the valve seats as stated before. What I am talking about is spending money to refurb your bottom end when there are potentially short motors out there that have very low mileage since someone already spent silly money to have it all done. 

btw, a 1.9 block can take a 2.2 & 2.4 crank depending on the casting ( minor DIY grinding for clearance of oil gallery casting, sometimes with 2.4 crank) . Some of the Opel 1.9 block castings are pretty thick walls so are great for overboring. But that’s not really helpful to you as such.

With heads, the 1.9/2.0 headgasket is pretty much the same apart from very early types that do not have the extra 2 timing cover bolts.  1.9 is 93mm bore, whilst The 2.0, 2.2 and 2.4 all are 95mm bore.  have a look here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opel_cam-in-head_engine  

Most new head gaskets for 1.9/2.0 + (unless very old) will work . Heads are easy to identify luckily https://www.opelgt.com/threads/cih-cylinder-head-markings.64337/

In fact read anything by ‘Rallybob’ as he’s got more time into the CIH engine then pretty much most ppl still posting.

 

 

[IanG]

12 hours ago, mepbowles said:

Thanks for the suggestions. I decided it's probably easiest to address everyone separately as you were all kin enough to reply.

It's a 19S currently and I do like it's not a standard 2.0. I guess it'll come down to ease and money. I don't have crazy funds to throw at it but I guess £300-1000 isn't awful, the lower the better 😁. I'd also probably end up storing the 1.9 parts I don't use so perhaps that may salway me. I really just want reliability and fuel efficiency with the occasional lead foot moment.

1. No idea how easy it would be to find a p2e head for not crazy money and whether it would be compatible with everything I already have on my 1.9 (exhaust manifold, spare gasket set etc.). 

2. Yeah, I was just sounding it out as things can quickly add up at £20/cylinder. In the long run it's nothing though so better to do it right.

3. Here's hoping

4. Understood, I might just do the head a little then, nothing wrong with a little more low end torque. I do find it fascinating I studied engines a little at university but it can go so deep with the variables.

5. By bottom end do you mean crank and pistons? I thought the longer throw wouldn't fit in a 1.9 block I less you meant a full short engine which surely costs a fair amount. If it's about a better crankshaft I can probably find a 1.6 crank quite easily and get that balanced for an improvement 

6. Another area where I'm a little clueless. I'm happy with current power so would only really change if it meant less fuel consumption without too much of a power hit but not sure a 1.6 cam would work well and clueless when it comes to degrees and fast road etc. I do have a NOS spare but I'd have to check the part number to see what it is.

7-8.  Yeah ive seen some prices and it seems they probably require a dip to do machining but I was quoted £150 to dip a block and £60 for a head. If I can clean the block myself tlit might save some money.

You mentioned 2.2 short engines being lead free. I thought it was just the valve seats that needed doing.

 

Also, these are the prices from my nearest machine shop. I feel like I could get it cheaper if I travel an hour or two but I'm pretty clueless.

Dip and clean block - £150-00

Crack test block - £60-00

Rebore block - £150-00

Hone block - £70-00

Reface block - £60-00

 

Regrind crank - £120-00

 

Overhaul head - shim - £370-00

                        Hydraulic - £270-00

Lead free - £25-00 per seat

 

All prices are + VAT and do not include any parts

 

It's 

It's a 1.9 so no idea what gaskets I would need if using a gte or Carlton head and what else might change and why. I don't imagine Carlton heads are too common though probably not too expensive either. H

 

I don't think there's much wear to the chain and I don't think there's ever been a skim. I think it's the first time it's been opened up and I'd like to do as many little improvements as I can do I don't have to open it up again for another 80-90k. But I do appreciate your thoughts as I don't want to just throw money at it needlessly.

 

I don't understand what you're saying about the Carlton dizzy Vs the gte dizzy and why not the original 1.9 one?

 

Is this the Carlton dizzy that cam in head mentioned? I still don't understand the need for it over the stock one.

I fitted this does the job and sets the dwell angle, car is def smoother with it.

1 minute ago, IanG said:

I fitted this does the job and sets the dwell angle, car is def smoother with it.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/391439313553?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=Zz_MRG2qTPS&sssrc=4429486&ssuid=1oAQMJSaQsq&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

[cam.in.head]

if i was going to fit a 2.0 head then i would use a 2.0 head gasket just to be sure .the bore being 95mm vs 92(or is it 93 ?) for the 1.9 .you could always lay the old 1.9 gasket on a 2.0 head to make sure the combustion chamber is full in the gasket area .

the 1.9 distributor question was that yours is a points version and to convert to electronic (without an aftermarket kit) means using a setup from a carlton 2litre with carb or a 2 litre injection one from a carlton or manta. i mentioned carlton because it was available as an electronic one with a carb engine whereas the manta wasnt and would have all the correct advance curves. 

as mentioned by jess thou ,modern fuel is totally different to old 4 star but cannot agree that modern fuel is superior especially in an engine not designed for it. my cars ran far better years ago on the proper fuel and are a bugger now to get right .even using super unleaded 99 ron they need a lot of experimenting with timing and plug gaps to get right. the stock settings are only a starting point now. ( on mine anyway ?)

[Jessopia74]

4 hours ago, cam.in.head said:

 

as mentioned by jess thou ,modern fuel is totally different to old 4 star but cannot agree that modern fuel is superior especially in an engine not designed for it. my cars ran far better years ago on the proper fuel and are a bugger now to get right .even using super unleaded 99 ron they need a lot of experimenting with timing and plug gaps to get right. the stock settings are only a starting point now. ( on mine anyway ?)

No you are correct, the timing will need adjustment and experimentation is as you say the only way. But this is the easy part, when you know the spark energy from coil/disi is good ofc.

[mepbowles]

Thanks. I didn't quite see why it devolved into Carltons but that makes sense. I didn't notice it was an electronic one. 

In the first post of this thread I mentioned wanting electronic ignition but I may try setting up points once myself for the experience.

The car used to run beautifully (thanks largely to Paul probably ). The only issue it hard was starting, especially in the cold. A freshly charged battery and regular use made it much easier though so perhaps it was just a charging issue, not today's problem certainly.

[Jessopia74]

1 hour ago, mepbowles said:

Thanks. I didn't quite see why it devolved into Carltons but that makes sense. I didn't notice it was an electronic one. 

In the first post of this thread I mentioned wanting electronic ignition but I may try setting up points once myself for the experience.

The car used to run beautifully (thanks largely to Paul probably ). The only issue it hard was starting, especially in the cold. A freshly charged battery and regular use made it much easier though so perhaps it was just a charging issue, not today's problem certainly.

Nothing wrong with points as such, they are just mechanical and wear. Meaning they do need constant adjustment in reality to keep them 100% correct. But buy a dwell meter and set by the angle rather than gap will yield best result. 

[mepbowles]

On 10/05/2024 at 23:26, Jessopia74 said:

However, it would be best single fit and forget upgrade that would definitely help with fuel economy if that if your concern.

btw, a 1.9 block can take a 2.2 & 2.4 crank depending on the casting ( minor DIY grinding for clearance of oil gallery casting, sometimes with 2.4 crank) . Some of the Opel 1.9 block castings are pretty thick walls so are great for overboring. But that’s not really helpful to you as such.

With heads, the 1.9/2.0 headgasket is pretty much the same apart from very early types that do not have the extra 2 timing cover bolts.  1.9 is 93mm bore, whilst The 2.0, 2.2 and 2.4 all are 95mm bore.  have a look here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opel_cam-in-head_engine  

Most new head gaskets for 1.9/2.0 + (unless very old) will work . Heads are easy to identify luckily https://www.opelgt.com/threads/cih-cylinder-head-markings.64337/

In fact read anything by ‘Rallybob’ as he’s got more time into the CIH engine then pretty much most ppl still posting

Electronic ignition is definitely happening. Either cheaper powerspark or full hogI.

I've been delving into the Opel GT forum posts about engines, cranks, pistons etc. I think I want to stay away from boring if possible as its more time/effort to configure the replacement parts/compatibility than I think I have.

I don't think I'm against buying a 2.2 short motor and fitting a unleaded head as the extra grunt will be good with my auto transmission.I

'll look into prices but I haven't seen much availabile.

Saying that, only 1 bore in my 1.9 looks like it needs honing so it will probably be cheaper to just use what I have. I'd also end up Keeping the 1.9 block as a spare which my wife wouldn't be thrilled about 

If I don't get a new block, I assume I can't use the 2.2 crank in my 1.9 block without new valves and possibly pistons and possibly exhaust? Cost cost cost.

 

Instead, would a 1.6 crank be a nice small upgrade that requires no other modifications??? I need to read up on the differences between 1.9 and 1.6

 

 

In other news, my cam cover seems very attached to my crank case. I'm trying to remove in situ and haven't unbolted the sump so that IS DEFINITELY THE PROBLEM.  

Hopefully I can get at all the sump bolts, otherwise I'm going to have to lift it all out together. Still, it should only be about 60-70kg so not too bad to hear over the nose and onto a waiting workbench.

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Edited May 15 by mepbowles

[mepbowles]

On 11/05/2024 at 21:08, Jessopia74 said:

Nothing wrong with points as such, they are just mechanical and wear. Meaning they do need constant adjustment in reality to keep them 100% correct. But buy a dwell meter and set by the angle rather than gap will yield best result. 

Apparently I can use my multimeter when the time comes but this is good to know.I got the sump bolts off to drop the sump down a little. After a little more persuasion than expected the timing cover was off.

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It's all covered in a nice thick layer of black oil so I'm sure the degreasing stage will be very satisfying!

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The transmission is supported and I've started removing the bolts to release the block. Unfortunately I need a 15mm spanner and I don't have one so a trip to Halfords will be required tomorrow and then it's should be out with the block!

I also found some piston rings for £30-35 so will pick them up to replace during the rebuild.

Unfortunately I also saw that the drivers swan neck is starting to go again and probably wasn't patched very well last time. If I'm removing all the suspension, I might well try patching it myself. Though I'd rather get some practice in first.

 

Finally, I've been thinking about my exhaust and how rusty it is. Is it worth dipping in molasses and painting it or getting it sandblasted and painted (I might be doing the front suspension so I could get a good group price), or could I get a stainless exhaust made up for my automatic saloon?

[Jessopia74]

That’s some bad black oil sludge, sadly a sign that it’s gone between oil changes for an extended amount of time . This engine will certainly thank you for the rebuild. 
100% worth putting new rings in, especially at that price. Just be mindful of the ring position on the piston.

Swan neck could be from the inside, from the inner/outer seam. When you can get in there, worth grinding back and possibly cutting the out all the corroded outer skin and stitch in new metal. You will be able to cure the offending inner section at this stage too.

[mepbowles]

Any tips for separating a cylinder block from the auto gearbox that won't slide off the shaft easily????

Edit: did some digging in manuals/documents. Are there bolts from the torque converter to the flywheel? Bolt 33 seems to do it and perhaps you can access from hatch 43???

Edit2: Euro service manual seems to suggest the crankshaft bolted to flexplate bolted to torque converter connected to gearbox. So the three bolts do need to come out.

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So I have a jack under the auto box, all ancillaries and bolts removed. But the block and gearbox are still pretty firmly stuck together.

Sidenote, the clearance is awful on some of the bolts! No idea how I'm going to torque them correctly if that's a thing. Perhaps a flex head spanner would help?

I thought I might be able to lift it and slide it off the gearbox shaft but the whole auto box comes up as one and it won't detach nicely and slide off the shaft.

Would an engine crane make this easier? I really wanted to avoid having to buy one but it looks like it's inevitable. Not sure it would solve the problem but at least I can aprod tap and poke while it holds the block up.

Edited May 21 by mepbowles

[cam.in.head]

yes    you need to remove the lower half shield and remove the 3 bolts that bolt the torque converter to the flywheel flexplate . do not try to pull the torque converter out still fixed to the engine .

it does just pull off but leave it on the gearbox if you can to prevent damaging the input seal .( unless its leaking anyway in which case you will have to pull it off afterwards to get to the seal)

otherwise then the only thing holding the engine to the gearbox will be a couple of dowel pins. they maybe tight !

[mepbowles]

That's tomorrow's fun task then! Hopefully the block just slides out after that

 

I'm leaning heavily towards getting the gearbox out so I can degreaser it and clean it up and I think I'd like to drop the suspension and get it all cleaned up too, fitting some every so slightly lower springs.

And then I start thinking about tidying the underside but as long as I get the hard to reach places done while the gearbox and engine are out, then the rest can be tackled another time.

[mepbowles]

I should rename this the constantly delayed project!

Good news though, I picked up this for £160 so lifting the block and gearbox out should be a breeze. I don't have alot of room to manoeuvre though but that's fine for now. Refitting might require a friend to roll the car out abit to make room. Perhaps all the other clutter will be gone by then making it easier.

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[Jessopia74]

you might need to extend the arm a little on that. We have one and have an extra hole drilled so it extends out further, ofc we have never had an issue but it does technically reduce the SWL - however SWL is usually 1/3 of tested capacity anyway.

[mepbowles]

I think Pythagoras is helping me out here. Lifting the front to work on it has meant the arm reaches the engine quite easily.

All 3 torque converter bolts are out and it's suitably loose that separation should be easy once I get a lifting strap. I could use my ratchet straps but I'd rather not risk it.

 

Quite how I'm going to pivot it round in the tight space is a problem for another day. I'm leaning more and more towards rolling the car out for the refit.

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[Jessopia74]

Yeah, giving yourself a bit more room to work will save headaches and time overall mate. 

[mepbowles]

Well happy days. Picked up the strap yesterday and finally hoisted the block out. There was just enough room to swing it round and onto the floor.

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I'll get on with taking it apart today/tomorrow and checking for any damage. If I can find some degreaser, I'll set up a cleaning station with air, water, degreaser and wd40/derivative.

The engine bay now looks pretty bare so I think some new brake lines are in order while there's ample room to move. If I can find some more space I might do a full engine bay strip and give it a respray. (Upside down somehow).

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[Jessopia74]

Good stuff, that’s the first big hurdle. 👍

[mepbowles]

Thanks Jess. Very exciting to do though I do get the sense that the job has only just begun if I'm doing brake lines and suspension.

I got impatient/excited and had a look at the journals and bearings today. They look pretty worn showing the underlying copper. I'll see what size the journals are tomorrow .

The smell of burnt oil was fairly strong.

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[cam.in.head]

to be honest that is very very little wear . ive seen shells that were badly worn to the underlay in the middle and heavily scored and came from otherwise perfect running engines with still good oil pressure. 

 

they look like the original type shells from factory,( replacements are usually silver/ grey)

it shows your engine has been pretty well looked after in terms of oil changes at least and hopefully you wont come across any major nasties elsewhere.

dont be disconcerted about the smell. all engines will smell like that inside especially the very unusual smell you get from undoing cap bolts !

all plenty of fun anyway ( as is making new brake pipes and getting them looking stock ) well worth the time and effort.

[mepbowles]

3 hours ago, cam.in.head said:

to be honest that is very very little wear . ive seen shells that were badly worn to the underlay in the middle and heavily scored and came from otherwise perfect running engines with still good oil pressure. 

 

they look like the original type shells from factory,( replacements are usually silver/ grey)

it shows your engine has been pretty well looked after in terms of oil changes at least and hopefully you wont come across any major nasties elsewhere.

dont be disconcerted about the smell. all engines will smell like that inside especially the very unusual smell you get from undoing cap bolts !

all plenty of fun anyway ( as is making new brake pipes and getting them looking stock ) well worth the time and effort.

Well it has got me a little confused as there was definitely an odd thunking but nothing seems out of the ordinary so far. It's all fun and games anyway and a nice learning opportunity as well as an excuse to buy tools like brake pipe benders that I might be able to reuse for other tasks 

[Jessopia74]

Yeah, I agree -that wear is low/acceptable indeed. Only thing you need to be looking for us any scoring marks - if not, happy days 😎

 

[mepbowles]

So I've been chipping away at this since I got back from holiday. I got the camshaft out and pistons out. The big ends were a little more scored but I've paid someone to send me a 8 weight crankshaft from a 1.6 along with the bearings and an exhaust heat shield so I'll have that balanced etc and keep the original as a spare.

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I've also started stripping and cleaning the head and need to book it in for an unleaded conversion.

Once the block was stripped I decided to try and derust it by electrolysis and after a false start and a flash rust incident last night, I managed to pressure wash, airgun and WD40 it before the rust could get to it. It's currently bagged up in a cloud of WD40 so I'm hoping that'll keep it in good condition until it can get honed. The process was really good for removing the rust and grease but it seems to have tarnished the bites a little. It'll probably come out with some polish but I was going to home them anyway.

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Finally, I noticed the timing chain guide is a little bent. I doubt it matters too much but I've asked my camshaft chap if he can get it off his engine though I don't hold out much hope.

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