2400man Posted August 9, 2022 Share Posted August 9, 2022 (edited) Evening folks, It’s sure been a while since I posted on here but I've finally managed to start the rebuild of the C24NE lump in readiness for dropping into the Coupe. I originally put it in the GTE hatch in the 1990’s but never got it running right. I'm hoping to complete this by next spring/summer, maybe in time for the VBOA rally, so will be posting updates on here, as and when I make decent progress. Of course it would be great to hear from others who've done the same or a similar conversion (I know of one or two who have 😉 ) First point....... starting a project like this last year during a pandemic was not great timing on my part! The order of work is roughly: 1. Strip down engine, check for wear and fix any issues. 2. Clean up exterior and repaint head and block. 3. Rebuild engine. 4. Modify Frontera alloy sump with custom sump bowl. 5. Clean up ancills. 6. Fit engine. 7. Fit stainless exhaust originally from hatch, after centre box mods. 8. Temporarily install original Frontera inlet manifold (can’t close bonnet with this in place). 9. Install Omega Motronic M1,5 ECU, AFM and loom. 10. Fit new fuel pump. The intention is to use a pump that will connect using banjo fittings. 11. Replace perishable rubber hose in the system with nylon fuel line. 12. Get engine running. 13. Modify straight 6 inlet manifold by cutting down to fit 2.4 head and fitting 2.6 dual ram throttle body, ensuring it fits under bonnet correctly. (I had clearance issues with the first attempt at both the sump and manifold in the hatch!) 14. Tune engine / remap ECU So far it’s taken months to get to the point of just refurbing the cylinder head which needed new valve guides. The machine shop I used planned to fit phosphor bronze inserts and ream them out, but couldn’t track down the right size reamer. Thankfully by a stroke of luck they were working on an Alfa twin cam head and it turned out the bronze guides for this were perfect to use in the Frontera head …… problem solved. The next task was to sort out the block. Unfortunately I left the engine sat around for 6 years with the old anti freeze and oil in it, so there was some corrosion staining in the bores and the waterways were all gunged up with rust. Thanks to Paul Newport for suggesting using citric acid to clean out the waterways. It looks a fair bit better now after a good derust inside and out. I’ve also following GoinManta’s advice on Youtube and replaced the small core plugs at the end of the main oil gallery with a screw in plug (M16x1.5). The block has now been taken back to the local machine shop. They previously checked it for wear etc, the upshot being that the bores just need a re-hone, so new piston rings, and the top of the block needs a reface. They’ve assured me that the tiny amount they remove from the block for the reface, 2 to 4 thou. won’t cause any clearance issues. They’re also going to polish the crank bearings in readiness for new bearing shells. Meanwhile I’ll be looking for gaskets etc ready for the engine rebuild. One thing I’m not sure on is engine core plugs. Stainless steel sounds a good idea in theory but maybe sticking with OE plated mild steel would be advisable. Anyone have experience with stainless plugs? Once the engine is fully rebuilt, it’ll be on to the other things on the list before getting it running…….. Then at some point I’ll have to tackle the Motronic remap ….eeeek! I’m looking at going down the Tuner Pro route. Again if anyone has experience of this, I’d be pleased to hear from them. Cheers for now David Project images are available to Club Members Only, Click to become an OMOC Member.Project images are available to Club Members Only, Click to become an OMOC Member. Project images are available to Club Members Only, Click to become an OMOC Member. Project images are available to Club Members Only, Click to become an OMOC Member. Project images are available to Club Members Only, Click to become an OMOC Member. Project images are available to Club Members Only, Click to become an OMOC Member. Project images are available to Club Members Only, Click to become an OMOC Member. Project images are available to Club Members Only, Click to become an OMOC Member. Edited August 23, 2022 by 2400man change image size 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
611 Posted August 9, 2022 Share Posted August 9, 2022 Did a 2.4 rebuild for mine but my route was a fair bit different from yours so not sure if i can offer much advice, but one thing i would say is use the rubber sump (not sure if its the same when using the Frontera sump?) and rocker gasket rather than the cork as the rubber ones seal great. Depending on what rocker cover you are using it might need a small mod, im using the GT cover. Will see if i can look out part numbers if your interested. Andy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2400man Posted August 9, 2022 Author Share Posted August 9, 2022 (edited) 25 minutes ago, 611 said: Did a 2.4 rebuild for mine but my route was a fair bit different from yours so not sure if i can offer much advice, but one thing i would say is use the rubber sump (not sure if its the same when using the Frontera sump?) and rocker gasket rather than the cork as the rubber ones seal great. Depending on what rocker cover you are using it might need a small mod, im using the GT cover. Will see if i can look out part numbers if your interested. Andy Thanks for the input Andy. Would deffo be interested in any part numbers you have. I have plenty to share too. I shall be using the original 2.4 rocker cover with rubber gasket and the Frontera sump, which also has a rubber gasket. The original sump bowl will be removed and a custom bowl made up and fitted, a bit like on this sump...... Shame I haven't got the rest of that engine 😆😍 What injection/engine management are you running btw? Project images are available to Club Members Only, Click to become an OMOC Member. Edited August 9, 2022 by 2400man edit image and text Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonmonkey Posted August 9, 2022 Share Posted August 9, 2022 Interested in following this, as have C24NE to rebuild myself. WRT the sump I was going to use the sump from my 2.0cih, and re-instate the dipstick tube in the block as per the 2.0. For injection I’m planning on using Jenvey throttle bodies. They do a DCOE replacement that is only 90mm long vs 118mm of a DCOE. This combined with a “short” twin DCOE manifold should give enough clearance on the master cylinder, but I will need to relocate the reservoir Good Luck 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2400man Posted August 10, 2022 Author Share Posted August 10, 2022 10 hours ago, Moonmonkey said: Interested in following this, as have C24NE to rebuild myself. WRT the sump I was going to use the sump from my 2.0cih, and re-instate the dipstick tube in the block as per the 2.0. For injection I’m planning on using Jenvey throttle bodies. They do a DCOE replacement that is only 90mm long vs 118mm of a DCOE. This combined with a “short” twin DCOE manifold should give enough clearance on the master cylinder, but I will need to relocate the reservoir Good Luck Cheers Roger, Good luck with your project too! I've heard about using Jenvey's before but know nothing about the details. What do you use for engine management with that set up? Re the sump options, yeah I considered using an OE tin sump too. It's certainly a lot lighter than the Frontera one I modified previously. Of course you'd have to drill out the block for the dipstick tube if it's like my 2.4 block. I like the idea of an ali sump though and hopefully will get some useful extra capacity with the customer made bowl, plus the rubber gasket setup seals better than cork. I'm also planning to fit a Fumoto drain valve - been using them for years on my SAAB's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
611 Posted August 10, 2022 Share Posted August 10, 2022 Sorry i cant see you imaged as i didn't renew my membership as spent it on the insurance valuation as the club don't offer one!! Here is a different sump option as i didn't want to drill the block, works great. https://www.theopelproject.com/dipstick-alternative-option/ Im running Webcon throttle bodies (a bit expensive but i had them already) and the Omex 600 ECU i can highly recommend the Omex as easy to install as you can buy the bar loom quite cheap and the support is excellent, and i have a 2,4 map i could share!! I have a blog with loads of info on it www.theopelproject.com which might help with a few ideas. And can get any part numbers for things i have ordered if you let me know what it is. i have tried to add them to the blog but sometime i forget! Andy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jessopia74 Posted August 10, 2022 Share Posted August 10, 2022 Even though I have a MS2 setup on the bench, for my 2,4 (CIH16) build I am going with Omex. They are well supported and the feedback from all the FB groups I am in do rave about the excellent remote support they offer,so we’ll worth the investment. ‘Would be wise to forgo the headaches of that Motronic and go Omex. You could even use std Manifold without the AFM if you wish as intermediate stage, otherwise Jenvey . I will be going with the Webber Look bodies, so it looks like carbs but get all the benefits of the full map. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
611 Posted August 10, 2022 Share Posted August 10, 2022 3 hours ago, Jessopia74 said: Even though I have a MS2 setup on the bench, for my 2,4 (CIH16) build I am going with Omex. They are well supported and the feedback from all the FB groups I am in do rave about the excellent remote support they offer,so we’ll worth the investment. ‘Would be wise to forgo the headaches of that Motronic and go Omex. You could even use std Manifold without the AFM if you wish as intermediate stage, otherwise Jenvey . I will be going with the Webber Look bodies, so it looks like carbs but get all the benefits of the full map. Omex is the way to go. Great support and Its also good that you don't have to use their "Specific" sensors and stuff as i used some of the stuff i already had from the Webcon setup which saved me few quid and Troy at Northampton motorsport knows the system well and set mine up and even dialled in remotely when i first got it running to check and adjust a few settings. It might be a little bit more expensive than some systems but as you say, save yourself the pain 🙂 Mine is so much better on throttle bodies than it ever would be on the twin carbs. Andy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GTEPETE Posted August 10, 2022 Share Posted August 10, 2022 5 hours ago, Jessopia74 said: Even though I have a MS2 setup on the bench, for my 2,4 (CIH16) build I am going with Omex. They are well supported and the feedback from all the FB groups I am in do rave about the excellent remote support they offer,so we’ll worth the investment. ‘Would be wise to forgo the headaches of that Motronic and go Omex. You could even use std Manifold without the AFM if you wish as intermediate stage, otherwise Jenvey . I will be going with the Webber Look bodies, so it looks like carbs but get all the benefits of the full map. Are you happy, since Omex ceased trading, the new people provide the same support as before? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
611 Posted August 10, 2022 Share Posted August 10, 2022 3 hours ago, GTEPETE said: Are you happy, since Omex ceased trading, the new people provide the same support as before? Didn't realise they had to be honest. The problem is a lot of these small companies must find it hard to exist with the rising cost of everything. I had the Webcon Alpha before and then they closed the engine management side of things, with zero help! and not many dealers that could help out as they kept it all controlled by them. I would hope that there would be some sort of help still available and maybe some dealers that can still help. You just have to choose what is best at the time and hope these days. Andy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GTEPETE Posted August 10, 2022 Share Posted August 10, 2022 ......Thankfully by a stroke of luck they were working on an Alfa twin cam head and it turned out the bronze guides for this were perfect to use in the Frontera head .... Interesting info David, do you know which model Alfa, may be part number? Did they re use your valves, caps and collets? OMEX info https://www.facebook.com/pg/omextechnology/posts/?ref=page_internal&mt_nav=0 Check out the 640 BHP 2.0 Corsa!!! https://www.facebook.com/pg/omextechnology/posts/?ref=page_internal&mt_nav=0 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jessopia74 Posted August 10, 2022 Share Posted August 10, 2022 6 minutes ago, GTEPETE said: ......Thankfully by a stroke of luck they were working on an Alfa twin cam head and it turned out the bronze guides for this were perfect to use in the Frontera head .... Interesting info. Do you know which model Alfa, may be part number? Did they re use your valves, caps and collets? OMEX info https://www.facebook.com/pg/omextechnology/posts/?ref=page_internal&mt_nav=0 https://www.facebook.com/pg/omextechnology/posts/?ref=page_internal&mt_nav=0 Prob a bounce back loan situation 💁🤦♂️😬😮😂😂 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2400man Posted August 11, 2022 Author Share Posted August 11, 2022 On 10/08/2022 at 12:11, 611 said: Sorry i cant see you imaged as i didn't renew my membership as spent it on the insurance valuation as the club don't offer one!! Here is a different sump option as i didn't want to drill the block, works great. https://www.theopelproject.com/dipstick-alternative-option/ Im running Webcon throttle bodies (a bit expensive but i had them already) and the Omex 600 ECU i can highly recommend the Omex as easy to install as you can buy the bar loom quite cheap and the support is excellent, and i have a 2,4 map i could share!! I have a blog with loads of info on it www.theopelproject.com which might help with a few ideas. And can get any part numbers for things i have ordered if you let me know what it is. i have tried to add them to the blog but sometime i forget! Andy Hi Andy, Just been having a look at your website. Very interesting. Will have to take a longer look over the weekend. I'm not familiar with the Omex system so will have to check that out too. I've bought a Moates chip reader/writer so I can pull the raw hex (.BIN) file off the OE Motronic M1.5 Eprom. Then the tricky bit - have to generate a binary definition file (.XDF for Tunerpro) from that to visualise the standard maps so would be interested to see what your map looks like in comparison. Then it's a case of getting an expert to do some tuning on the maps I guess once the new high flow lnlet manfold is sorted. I have also bought a Moates Ostrich emulator for that part - for making changes to the maps in real time on a laptop. BTW If you're interested in seeing any of the images I posted up on here, I could always pm them to you. David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2400man Posted August 11, 2022 Author Share Posted August 11, 2022 On 10/08/2022 at 13:51, Jessopia74 said: Even though I have a MS2 setup on the bench, for my 2,4 (CIH16) build I am going with Omex. They are well supported and the feedback from all the FB groups I am in do rave about the excellent remote support they offer,so we’ll worth the investment. ‘Would be wise to forgo the headaches of that Motronic and go Omex. You could even use std Manifold without the AFM if you wish as intermediate stage, otherwise Jenvey . I will be going with the Webber Look bodies, so it looks like carbs but get all the benefits of the full map. Hi, Yes I could well have a very sore head as a result of tackling the Motronic tuning lol! As I commented to 611 Andy, I've not come across Omex before but I'm certainly no expert and am open to looking at alternatives. I certainly like the idea of doing away with the AFM. My thinking with Motronic was that I wanted to try to keep OE if poss with the engine management and I discovered there's lots of people using TunerPro software to tune Motronic systems and lots of support on the Tunerpro forums, though most of them seem to be doing US muscle cars or BMW's. I'm hoping I can track down someone who has done some tweaking of the M2.5 maps on a 16V red top, so I can learn about the basic principals, and build on it from there. Would be great to hear more about your CIH16 build though. On 10/08/2022 at 20:44, GTEPETE said: ......Thankfully by a stroke of luck they were working on an Alfa twin cam head and it turned out the bronze guides for this were perfect to use in the Frontera head .... Interesting info David, do you know which model Alfa, may be part number? Did they re use your valves, caps and collets? OMEX info https://www.facebook.com/pg/omextechnology/posts/?ref=page_internal&mt_nav=0 Check out the 640 BHP 2.0 Corsa!!! https://www.facebook.com/pg/omextechnology/posts/?ref=page_internal&mt_nav=0 Thanks for the OMEX links Pete. I've just looked back at my invoice for the head refurb work but sorry no details about the Alfa guides. From memory, it was a 2.0l twin cam 8V head from the 80's I think but I'll give them a ring to check. They reused all the original valves etc. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
611 Posted August 13, 2022 Share Posted August 13, 2022 On 12/08/2022 at 00:11, 2400man said: Hi Andy, Just been having a look at your website. Very interesting. Will have to take a longer look over the weekend. I'm not familiar with the Omex system so will have to check that out too. I've bought a Moates chip reader/writer so I can pull the raw hex (.BIN) file off the OE Motronic M1.5 Eprom. Then the tricky bit - have to generate a binary definition file (.XDF for Tunerpro) from that to visualise the standard maps so would be interested to see what your map looks like in comparison. Then it's a case of getting an expert to do some tuning on the maps I guess once the new high flow lnlet manfold is sorted. I have also bought a Moates Ostrich emulator for that part - for making changes to the maps in real time on a laptop. BTW If you're interested in seeing any of the images I posted up on here, I could always pm them to you. David Hi David I have the omex software and a 2.4 map from when i had it tuned originally. Once you have made any tweaks you can overwrite the old map or save it as a new map and then you still have the original. I had a Webcon alpha system that Northampton motorsport were an approved tuner of but when i went up to have it setup we had lots of issues with it as its quite locked down so i was advised to try the Omex, they connected up their test ECU and the car was up and running with a 2.0l map and then they tuned it for the 2.4. They did a full dyno run and i was going to then go back up and have the full power run done to get it 100% spot on as the cam wasn't perfectly setup and the time (it was pretty damn close when i checked back home, but the guys there are perfectionists!) but once i had it running at home and Troy had remotely dialled into my laptop and made a few adjustments it was running very good and i have not gone back up as its so smooth and the power is awesome from it so it would just be extracting the last few bhp out of it as it was never built to have full out as "much power as possible" so i have left it. Its quick enough for an A series!! I can happily send you then software and map but i dont think you can view any of the map details without it being connected to the ECU. It would be good to see the engine in when you have it all running. Any reason you are not just going for a set of twin throttle bodies on your? (apart from the cost!) Andy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2400man Posted August 13, 2022 Author Share Posted August 13, 2022 1 hour ago, 611 said: Hi David I have the omex software and a 2.4 map from when i had it tuned originally. Once you have made any tweaks you can overwrite the old map or save it as a new map and then you still have the original. I had a Webcon alpha system that Northampton motorsport were an approved tuner of but when i went up to have it setup we had lots of issues with it as its quite locked down so i was advised to try the Omex, they connected up their test ECU and the car was up and running with a 2.0l map and then they tuned it for the 2.4. They did a full dyno run and i was going to then go back up and have the full power run done to get it 100% spot on as the cam wasn't perfectly setup and the time (it was pretty damn close when i checked back home, but the guys there are perfectionists!) but once i had it running at home and Troy had remotely dialled into my laptop and made a few adjustments it was running very good and i have not gone back up as its so smooth and the power is awesome from it so it would just be extracting the last few bhp out of it as it was never built to have full out as "much power as possible" so i have left it. Its quick enough for an A series!! I can happily send you then software and map but i dont think you can view any of the map details without it being connected to the ECU. It would be good to see the engine in when you have it all running. Any reason you are not just going for a set of twin throttle bodies on your? (apart from the cost!) Andy Hi Andy, Thanks for the extra info. Looks like I might need to have a chat with the guys at Omex or Northants Motorsport if setting it up is that easy, to see if it fits in with my plans. The reason I went down the route of a cut down straight six manifold in the first place was because someone, Ray West I thiink, advised me to go down that route, back in about 1994/1995 but obviously things have moved on a lot since then technologywise. Still, my understanding is that an inlet manifold with a single throttle, plenum and long runners gives better low end torque and driveability than ITB's and that's what I'm after rather than ultimate power, but I've never driven a vehicle running ITB's to find out first hand. I also came across a guy in Norway about 10 years ago who had already done the same thing as me so I was taking his advice. Unfortunately I lost contact with him when he stopped replying to my messages....cest la vie! 🙄 Project images are available to Club Members Only, Click to become an OMOC Member. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
611 Posted August 13, 2022 Share Posted August 13, 2022 22 minutes ago, 2400man said: Hi Andy, Thanks for the extra info. Looks like I might need to have a chat with the guys at Omex or Northants Motorsport if setting it up is that easy, to see if it fits in with my plans. The reason I went down the route of a cut down straight six manifold in the first place was because someone, Ray West I thiink, advised me to go down that route, back in about 1994/1995 but obviously things have moved on a lot since then technologywise. Still, my understanding is that an inlet manifold with a single throttle, plenum and long runners gives better low end torque and driveability than ITB's and that's what I'm after rather than ultimate power, but I've never driven a vehicle running ITB's to find out first hand. I also came across a guy in Norway about 10 years ago who had already done the same thing as me so I was taking his advice. Unfortunately I lost contact with him when he stopped replying to my messages....cest la vie! 🙄 Project images are available to Club Members Only, Click to become an OMOC Member. I would speak to Troy at Northampton motorsport, very knowledgeable and very helpful. You should come and drive mine! The 2.4 has loads of low end torque and pulls easy in low gears. I think it could forget 1st and just use 2nd its got some nice grunt compared to a 2.0l. Shame i am so far away from you. I expect Troy could give you some advice on the best option as he seems to do a lot of different cars and different engines etc.. I would be going for the simplest option with the least chance of problems as other wise it can start getting expensive these days with getting things machined and welded! Andy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Barrett Posted August 14, 2022 Share Posted August 14, 2022 Nothing wrong with using the cutdown 6 pot inlet. Just ditch the AFM may need to change injectors depending on state of tune, can etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
611 Posted August 14, 2022 Share Posted August 14, 2022 21 minutes ago, Paul Barrett said: Nothing wrong with using the cutdown 6 pot inlet. Just ditch the AFM may need to change injectors depending on state of tune, can etc. I was just thinking of the hassle factor of having it cut down and welded as down here its very hard to find someone willing to do that sort of stuff for you and at a decent price. A lot of places wont take on one off jobs, it was hard enough to find someone to bead blast the parts for the Lambretta!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GTEPETE Posted August 14, 2022 Share Posted August 14, 2022 Found this modded sump in my archives. Looks like its for a Turbocharged engine.. Project images are available to Club Members Only, Click to become an OMOC Member. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jessopia74 Posted August 14, 2022 Share Posted August 14, 2022 Think a modded alu one with rubber gasket would be best, but TIG costs are really high atm 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rutts Posted August 14, 2022 Share Posted August 14, 2022 I have a large capacity alloy sump off a bedford cf van cih. If anyone wants it to modify give me a shout. I am in blackburn Lancashire. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2400man Posted August 14, 2022 Author Share Posted August 14, 2022 23 hours ago, 611 said: I would speak to Troy at Northampton motorsport, very knowledgeable and very helpful. You should come and drive mine! The 2.4 has loads of low end torque and pulls easy in low gears. I think it could forget 1st and just use 2nd its got some nice grunt compared to a 2.0l. Shame i am so far away from you. I expect Troy could give you some advice on the best option as he seems to do a lot of different cars and different engines etc.. I would be going for the simplest option with the least chance of problems as other wise it can start getting expensive these days with getting things machined and welded! Andy Looks like I'll have to find an excuse for a trek down to Bournemouth 😁 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jessopia74 Posted August 14, 2022 Share Posted August 14, 2022 5 hours ago, rutts said: I have a large capacity alloy sump off a bedford cf van cih. If anyone wants it to modify give me a shout. I am in blackburn Lancashire. Got a pic mate? Better than the Frontera you think? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2400man Posted August 14, 2022 Author Share Posted August 14, 2022 13 hours ago, Paul Barrett said: Nothing wrong with using the cutdown 6 pot inlet. Just ditch the AFM may need to change injectors depending on state of tune, can etc. Funny you should say that Paul because going down that route has crossed my mind, once I've got it running with the standard setup. Not sure who does kits to replace AFM. Split Second in the states did at one point, conversions to hot wire MAF I think. The other option I guess would be to go down the MAP sensor route like on my 9000 Aero. 13 hours ago, 611 said: I was just thinking of the hassle factor of having it cut down and welded as down here its very hard to find someone willing to do that sort of stuff for you and at a decent price. A lot of places wont take on one off jobs, it was hard enough to find someone to bead blast the parts for the Lambretta!! I already have a couple of local people who could do the TIG work for me on both the inlet manifold and the sump. Thankfully there's not much needed on the manifold, but there is port matching work, making mounting points for the fuel rail and stuff like that which I would do. Hopefully the MkII manifold will fit under the bonnet and the MkII sump wont foul on the suspension! 😁 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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