2.0 cih engine

[Paul Barrett]

2.0 from a cavalier, has been partially stripped but parts in oily bags namely cam and rockers. 
inlet and carb included 

£300

 

collection from northampton

 

[Brown Job]

Do you still have this engine?  Am trying to rebuild mine but keep finding more and more problems, would be nice to know if there's a fall-back should I have to cut my losses.

BJ

[cam.in.head]

 if not i have a few of these lying around 

[Brown Job]

A few? Lying around? Must have more storage space than me!  Thanks for the heads-up.  But how many hundreds of miles are you from Chester?  Always a consideration with heavy lumps of stuff.

BJ

[Sutty2006]

Yeah and be careful lifting a CIH, last time me and Andy Rutter lifted one I ended up in hospital with severe back spasms. That really bloody hurt! 

[cam.in.head]

dont want to jump in before paul .if he has still got it.

im in bradford. have a couple of 2 litre s units and a couple of gte units. complete blocks thou. heads are off for storage purposes . and only  have the s heads .no gte heads.( only a std s head with a skim anyway )

2 minutes ago, Sutty2006 said:

Yeah and be careful lifting a CIH, last time me and Andy Rutter lifted one I ended up in hospital with severe back spasms. That really bloody hurt! 

this is true. 

back in the day i used to lift them out with a mate by hand.(complete !)

now its head off if manually lifting or i use a crane !

were getting old !

[GTEPETE]

1 hour ago, cam.in.head said:

dont want to jump in before paul .if he has still got it.

im in bradford. have a couple of 2 litre s units and a couple of gte units. complete blocks thou. heads are off for storage purposes . and only  have the s heads .no gte heads.( only a std s head with a skim anyway )

this is true. 

back in the day i used to lift them out with a mate by hand.(complete !)

now its head off if manually lifting or i use a crane !

were getting old !

Have issues too, recent clutch change of my FWD, I had to loop a ratchet strap to suspend the gearbox, while try to attach it to the block....guy on you tube, doing the same car,  just 'bench pressed it into position'.... 

[Brown Job]

5 hours ago, Sutty2006 said:

Yeah and be careful lifting a CIH, last time me and Andy Rutter lifted one I ended up in hospital with severe back spasms. That really bloody hurt! 

Sure as hell won't be me lifting it whatever happens.  I once carried a head about 100 yards to get it couriered, and that nearly creased me.  That was 20 years ago and I was younger and fitter then!

BJ

Thanks for all the help and info guys.  Will let you know what happens.  Like I say, this is very much the fall-back position, have laid out cash already to rebuild the existing engine so don't want to cut my losses on it if avoidable.  I'd be after the "S" engine anyway rather than the GTE, much easier swap from the 19S with no "extras" needed.

BJ

PS. Wonder why I can reply to my own topic here but not on piston rings raised the other week?

[Paul Barrett]

On 02/02/2023 at 14:59, Brown Job said:

Do you still have this engine?  Am trying to rebuild mine but keep finding more and more problems, would be nice to know if there's a fall-back should I have to cut my losses.

BJ

Yes I do

Have a crane too lol so no back pulling 

[Brown Job]

6 hours ago, Paul Barrett said:

Yes I do

Have a crane too lol so no back pulling 

Thanks for the response.  I'll let you know ASAP if it all goes pear-shaped or not on my own engine.  On the plus side, you mention a carb in the post so it must be an "S" engine, good for an easy swap with mine if push comes to shove.

BJ.

[Brown Job]

Hi All,

Finally in a position to let you know what happened on this one.  Sort of.

Head off, skimmed, valves ground, new stem seals, new gasket set. done.  Sump dropped, new piston ring set all round, new gasket, done.  Engine back in car.

AND THE SAME ###### FAULT!!!!!

Hiccuping on light throttle or off-throttle, goes through phases when it won't idle (revs drop and it splutters and dies).  Disturbed servo hose when tightening clip, revs dropped, mixture went super-lean.  Found it! Was the cry.  Obviously damaged/leaking servo hose.  Managed to obtain suitable hose, much struggling, replaced hose eventually (old hose hard as iron and virtually welded on).  

So what happened?  Nothing. that's what.  There's still a leak somewhere in the system - run the engine for a bit, switch off, and you can actually hear the hiss of leaking air. (You can kind of hear it when the engine's running but it's difficult to pick out).  But where from?  Also, the damned old heap now blows out huge amounts of smoke on starting up and it didn't do that before all the work.  

Therefore, thanks to those who offered a 2.0S engine, but a replacement engine would not have solved the issue after all.  I'm convinced the issue is vacuum-related but I cannot for the life of me work out exactly what's going on.  Am getting very, very sick and tired of the whole business and am thinking of solving it all with the aid of a little fuel and a match.  Totally browned off with this car, good money after bad and a wasted day of one of the few fine warm Easters I can remember in a lifetime.

BJ

[cam.in.head]

try to find the leaking air first. the servo pipes always go hard and brittle so you have found that but also the servo can go bad itself. (split diafragm or rusty casing. try idling the engine with the servo pipe out of the servo but with the end covered ?

but        dont confuse this with the normal hiss that the carb will make as its sucking air through it. 

 

re .the smoke on startup. the exhaust valves have a little o ring in the spring cap rather than a proper seal like on the inlet valve.ive seen many a recon ! head where this seal was fitted incorrectly. there is a groove on the valve stem. i assume you didnt put it in the groove before you put the valve spring cap on . it needs to goin from the top.pushed down into the cap just beforeyou fit the collets. if this ring is not where it should be oil runs down the stem and into the exhaust cavity. 

other ideas for the stutter. 

check dist cap for condition/damp/centre brush

check condenser screw and lead ( or replace points and condenser anyway or even convert to electronic if not already done )

check vac unit on distributor holds vacuum.

check ign timing. thisvaries from the markings depending on what fuel you are using . idealy non e10 such as esso synergy99 or similar. wrong timing usually causes pinking or a hesitstion rather than a stutter but worth checking anyway. idealy go to standard alignment marks and retard if pinking can be heard. mine can actually be advanced slightly with esso and plug gaps seem best at 32 thou ! every engine is different thou.

a few ideas for you there .

 

[Sutty2006]

Have you tried running it on e0 or e5 fuel? A lot of e10 fuel can have adverse effects on older cars. Have you replaced the carb to manifold gaskets? 

[Brown Job]

Hello folks,

Many thanks for all the advice.  I'll try to take it one point at a time.

1. Car has never, ever been run on E10, always on nominal E5 (Shell, usually, as they more or less have the monopoly round here).  Wouldn't touch E10 with a bargepole.

2. Gaskets were replaced during overhaul, but not sure about the carb to manifold as I wasn't present at the time.  Can't find out until after Easter.

3. Servo.  Strongly suspect this is the issue.  Can rule out the hiss from the carb, this is quite different and can be heard clearly by poking at the temperature compensator even on an engine that's not warmed up.  But the killer is that the hiss I hear comes after the engine is switched off and lasts for a good many seconds.  The only thing I can think of is something with a reservoir of vacuum that is leaking air into itself, since there's nothing that builds air pressure to leak it out.  And the only thing with a reservoir of vacuum is the servo.  The servo does operate, can do the old pump the pedal to empty reservoir, foot on pedal, start engine and sure enough the pedal sinks.  But I can get the same effect by just switching off for a few mins, foot on pedal, start engine - pedal sinks.  Not sure how long the servo is meant to hold vacuum for, but I think it should be longer than a few minutes.  Servo is probably original  and looks tatty and rusty, but it's looked like that since I bought the car 18 years ago.  Have a spare servo - though less than pristine - but it has no non-return valve, only the rubber that mounts the valve.  I can't find any suitable non-return valves for this 12mm system anywhere, except some Chinese-made ones.  UGH! The hiss I'm hearing seems to be located around the servo though I can't pin it down.  Another big pointer is that I once reversed the car gently out of a very confined space, touched the brakes while I checked the clearance, and the engine cut dead and wouldn't restart.

4. Smoke.  Again, I wasn't present during rebuild.  Presume the rings were fitted, I've seen the groove on the valve stems (got spare valves) and I have a spare kit with the rings in, so presume anyone rebuilding with experience of cars of this era - which he has - would have fitted them  Can ask after Easter.  Suppose it's just possible he fitted them on the inlets by mistake.

5. Dizzy cap was one of the first things I thought to check when this started 6 months ago.  Tracking was in my mind.  Cap is fine.

6. Points have been replaced as an early measure in a bid to cure this serious hesitation and cutting out, the "old" ones were OK anyway but process of elimination.

7. Dizzy advance/retard works fine, can move it by sucking on pipe.  Tastes disgusting and makes eyes pop, but it works.

8. Timing has been reset and plugs changed.

So you see why I am considering the servo as the likely culprit now.  I can run the car static with the hose disconnected for a test, but don't fancy these congested local roads with leg-power alone on the brakes.  Nor do I relish the idea that this might be progressive and lead to servo failure on the road at some future point.

And a Very Happy Easter to all our readers...

BJ.

[cam.in.head]

if the servo hisses after engine is turned off then there is defunately a problem there. if you unplug the pipe from the servo and bung the end this will prove this.   not sure what you mean by looking for a servo one way valve as the valve is halfway down the hose (could leak i suppose but unusual) 

proved by .........

you have fitted new servo hose so if sqeezing the hose as its hissing stops the hissing then its just the one way valve .someone will have a spare for you . if req.

 but .if its only a small leak i cant imagine that its bad enough to cause an engine  issue.

dont assume any engine builder knows 100% how these engines are supposed to be assembled either. ive seen many a horror story ! any problem with that exhaust o ring will cause smoke on startup or after a long idle.or after a long downhill section. any issues with the inlet seal will cause plug fouling. you may be able to see the o ring through the valve spring. if you can see it then its not in its groove !

 if it were me i would say run it for 500 miles approx and then check for the o ring when you retorque the head.have a nosy at the plugs too !      it MIGHT just be some assembly oil in exhaust and may all be ok .

[Jessopia74]

Later engines use stem seals on both.

[Brown Job]

Hi folks,

Thanks for the tips and suggestions.

Again, one point at a time.  It's a mid-production engine, one of the last 1900 engines from (probably) 1978.  But I guess it wouldn't do any harm to put stem seals on all valves if later engines were fitted like that, rather than pulling the inlets out and taking off seals fitted there (if they were, that's yet to be proven!)

My engine bloke should know his onions, he's nearly as old as me and used to do a bit of rallying back in the day when Chevettes, Cavaliers and Mantas were still big on the scene.  but hey, anyone can make a mistake, I will ask him after the holiday.

The " servo non-return valve" I'm talking about is the plastic pipe thing that protrudes from the servo and has the servo hose connected to it.  I assumed it was a valve, anyway, a sort of belt-and-braces fitting in addition to the check valve fitted mid-way in the servo hose.  But maybe it's just a straight push-in connector?  Didn't feel inclined to pull it out and look, probably causing even more problems for myself in the process.

Before I read this posting I was out this morning and disconnected the servo hose at the servo end, then let the engine idle for about 20 mins. with the hose plugged, as that was all part of the plan once the hose had been replaced.  Didn't get any issues, but this is an infernal intermittent fault anyway.  Incredibly difficult to pinpoint.  Switched off the engine and there was no hiss.  Conclusion - the hiss is from the servo.  It could be that the actual drum is pinholed but I suspect the diaphragm may be the cause of the problem.

As far as I know, there is no modern replacement for the servo drum assembly and they are not repairable.  Am I right?

BJ

[Jessopia74]

44 minutes ago, Brown Job said:

Hi folks,

Thanks for the tips and suggestions.

Again, one point at a time.  It's a mid-production engine, one of the last 1900 engines from (probably) 1978.  But I guess it wouldn't do any harm to put stem seals on all valves if later engines were fitted like that, rather than pulling the inlets out and taking off seals fitted there (if they were, that's yet to be proven!)

>………….////////

Sadly if the head is not machined for the stem seals on all, then you will be stuck with o-rings on exhaust. 

[Brown Job]

OK. so you are saying that if the head's not machined to take the stem seals on the inlets, they can't be fitted?  That would rule out the possibility that they have gone on inlets by mistake, they must be on exhausts.  So if the smoke is related in some way to the seals it can only be because they are not correctly in place.

BJ

[Jessopia74]

7 hours ago, Brown Job said:

OK. so you are saying that if the head's not machined to take the stem seals on the inlets, they can't be fitted?  That would rule out the possibility that they have gone on inlets by mistake, they must be on exhausts.  So if the smoke is related in some way to the seals it can only be because they are not correctly in place.

BJ

correct assumption, earlier heads have top of guides only machined for seals. You could just fit a later head anyway that’s already lead free, (designated X2etc)

[Paul Barrett]

Engine still available 

[Brown Job]

Hi yes, I guess I could do that if it was a 1600 or 2000 head, but not a 1900?  Production didn't go past 1978.

Oddly enough, I've never had the slightest bother with valve seat recession - though I expected it a long time ago - and can only assume the valve seats got work-hardened prior to the introduction of unleaded, since lead memory wouldn't have lasted all that long.

BJ

7 minutes ago, Paul Barrett said:

Engine still available 

If I only had suitable storage, I'd buy it as a safety-net.  But I haven't, and it wouldn't last long in a cold dirty damp tin shed.  Even the house is cold and damp in winter...maybe not quite so dirty.

BJ

[cam.in.head]

yes as said above .later 2 litre engines were fitted with the exhaust valve stem seals (gte injection and the carlton 2 litre s carb engine)but the original o ring setup didnt give much trouble. usually its just the inlets that just go hard and foul up the plugs.

what do your plugs looklike ? a bad inlet oil seal wont take long to show up / clog up a plug !    a bad exhaust seal will never show up on a plug .

providing your enginebuilder remembers compressing the valve top cap first and putting the o ring down the exhaust valve and intothe second groove then all should be ok.

as to fitting a later head it would indeed be marked p2 (or p2e for injection)but im not 100% sure about chamber size and wether it will affect the compression ratio even as a gte head.ive not done any cross spec assemblys.

a gte head is just a skimmed version of a 's' head anyway with a forward profiled camshaft to allow for the head sitting lower/timing chain retarded  effect. 

as regards the servo (as std) the non return valve is halfway down the hose and the plastic end that plugs into the servo is merely a connector. yours might be different/changed ?  

but if squeezing the hose stops the hissing then the servo is not at fault anyway !

servos CAN and do rust into holes on the back around the mounting studs . hard to find new now ,early ate ones are a bit beefier than later ones (slightly different style but interchangeable)  but as i said yours may be ok anyway.

and then to add. the 1.9 is fitted with quite a complicated carb.  this COULD be where the problem lies but cant offer much advice on that one other than checking for air leaks .maybee a rebuild kit ? ? 

 

[Moonmonkey]

1 hour ago, cam.in.head said:

and then to add. the 1.9 is fitted with quite a complicated carb.  this COULD be where the problem lies but cant offer much advice on that one other than checking for air leaks .maybee a rebuild kit ? ? 

 

I agree the period OEM carbs were rubbish(was the1.9 a Zenith? and the 2.0 a Varijet), and could be where the fault lies. They have vacuum operated secondary chokes which never seemed to work once they got old.

I had running issues on a 1.9 Cavalier back in the ‘80’s and took it to the tuners. They took one look at the standard carb and told me to bin it and fit a Weber 32/36dgv from a 2 litre pinto ford. Got one from a scrap yard, K&N filter and no problem thereafter. They are a direct fit to the standard 1.9/2.0 carb manifold so easy to fit. As they were a common ford fitment on RS2000s etc you can still get all the servicing kits for them and even brand new carbs. Might be worth trying to hold of a cheap 2nd hand one or borrow one to try and rule it out if nothing else.

The 3.0 litre Capri Weber DGAS also fits with a bit of grinding on the intake manifold to widen the port as they are twin 38mm where as the standard carb had (I think) a 35mm primary choke. The DGAS was better for a modified engine, and used for years on a road rally 2.0

[Brown Job]

Hi folks,

Let's save everyone some wear and tear on the keyboard by saying that this car has run a Weber 32/36DGV (manual choke) since 2007.  Unlike a lot of people, I didn't think the Zenith INAT was rubbish (overcomplicated, yes, very, but quite economical and efficient on factory settings).  Got some bad fuel in the batches that were being sold at the time and that was the finish of it - disturb the Zeniths and it was Goodnight Vienna, just bin them and save time and effort.  I now speak heresy by saying I didn't think the Varajet II was rubbish either.  On the original leaded fuel my Cavalier went like the proverbial off a shovel.  You have to understand how to set the Varajet II (and I hate autochokes anyway) but set up properly it's by no means a rubbish carb, just overcomplicated - again!

Thanks for explaining the connector in the front end of the servo is just a connector.  Haynes label it as a non-return valve.

As this is a damnable intermittent fault with the mixture leaning off, I suspect that there is a split or some other damage to the rubber rolling diaphragm in the servo.  So that in some positions, it will leak a lot and in others it won't leak, or leak very little.  That of course doesn't rule out a pinholed servo drum, it might have that as well.  But that would be present permanently, not OK sometimes and leaking at others.

The problem is not with the check valve in the servo hose, eliminate the servo from the system and there is no hiss on killing the engine and the running at idle is perfect.  Got to be something servo-related IMHO.  Busy today cleaning up and repainting my spare servo for fitting, fingers crossed it's better internally than what's on the car.

Thanks for all the ideas,

BJ

 

Edited April 10, 2023 by Brown Job
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