gsi marc Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Hi could anyone tell me if the 3.0 straight six senator engine fits the manta has ive been offerd a good low milage auto engine, If so wonderd witch box you would use, thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retro Power Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Yes it does fit, but its very heavy and will not help the handling one bit! It will fit the std manta 2.0 GTE gearbox Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manta3000 Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 my manta was fitted with 24v,taken it out,16v going in 24v best in my carlton gsi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsi marc Posted January 20, 2012 Author Share Posted January 20, 2012 Yes it does fit, but its very heavy and will not help the handling one bit! It will fit the std manta 2.0 GTE gearbox Thanks for that thought it might be a touch heavy, maybe a 2.0 omiga and use the engine and box then my manta was fitted with 24v,taken it out,16v going in 24v best in my carlton gsi Yes its probably going to be omiga 2.0 engine and box swap then sounds like the 3.0 litre will mess with the handling thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mantadoc Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 The 12V 3.0 180 BHP for a couple of hundred quid is a quick easy conversion and with decent coils under the front and doing it properly (that means not lowering the anti roll bar) it handls fine, you feel the weigh but instead of understeer use the power to use oversteer to balance it up. Done two for a couple of mates of mine and both enjoyed driving them and didn't find the handling an issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MANTAMAN Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 striaght six's can be made to work very well in a Manta if the Haverinan brothers in Finland are anything to go by..... http://youtu.be/K-zKfud50A0 In the race footage they have handicapped the yellow manta by making it start way back off the grid yet the only it doesn't pass is the sound barrier!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mantasrme Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 The 12v 6cylinder is a cheap conversion and a decent power hike over the GT/e lump. But its almost twice the weight of a 16v engine 2/3rds of that extra weight is sat infront of where the 16v fits, so it will never handle as well as a 16valved manta no mater what you do to the suspension. As Mantaman's video shows you can get a shed load of power from a 6cylinder, but they are no where near standard engines. Not sure what's been done to them but i'd guess there not just 3litres any more and i saw individual throttle bodies under the bonnet. Also did you notice they'd moved the engine back into the bulkhead to get a better weight ballance and handling Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason b Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 (edited) I've done it (well, I currently use the 2.5 but have a 3.0L engine build in the garage) and don't regret it one bit - however, as I have found, if you intend to do it properly then don't expect to be able to cheaply rebuild the 12v 6pot CIH lump - the parts seem to be very very hard to come by at sensible prices. If you just want a fast great handling manta then there are loads of engines you can fit. I however wanted my cav to be a "what if vauxhall had made a factory straight 6 cavalier" type of build to use as a daily. That said, I have yet to redo everything properly (when the new engine drops in) but the car does handle nice and predictably as said above - it is nose heavy, but the extra grunt from even my underperforming 2.5L engine balances it out quite well. That is using ~450lb springs on the front and GAZ dampers all round... and yes, the video above shows how well it can work, however that is not a straight drop in! - the engine is sat back a very very long way. Edited January 21, 2012 by Jason b Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mantadoc Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 The 12v 6cylinder is a cheap conversion and a decent power hike over the GT/e lump. But its almost twice the weight of a 16v engine 2/3rds of that extra weight is sat infront of where the 16v fits, so it will never handle as well as a 16valved manta no mater what you do to the suspension. True, but compared to upgrading a GTE the engine is about a third heavier and the two cylinders in front of the original line probably don't shift the car's centre of gravity further forward by more than an inch or so. Weld a Vectra B battery tray down in the boot and move your battery rearwards (consider acquiring the battery lead and terminals of a 6 cyl E36 to locate your battery in the boot) to balance it out a bit maybe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monzta Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Weld a Vectra B battery tray down in the boot and move your battery rearwards (consider acquiring the battery lead and terminals of a 6 cyl E36 to locate your battery in the boot) to balance it out a bit maybe. Yes it would, and you can make further tweaks to improve the weight balance of the car. I too have made a couple of theese builds and there are some things to consider. First you need to take a good hard long look at the A series TE2800 that was made in a very limited edition. When they finished the car it weighed in 200kg more than a stock GTE but it had the same weight balance as a GTE. I know of at least one user in here that drives a TE2800 for rally so maybe he can give you some tips as well Secondly you need to stop thinking that the goldtop weighs like 2 tonnes more than everything else. It is true that it is twice as heavy as a redtop, but the redtop is a light little engine in comparison to the stock CIH anyways, so no comparisons there. The goldtop does not weigh 1/3rd more than the stock CIH. A stock 2,0GTE engine weigh in at 155kg and a 3,0E is 200kg, but as you dont need the 12kg servo pump you can save this weight. A C30SE 24v is only 180kg! All in all only 40 something kg more. Yes this sits beyond the front axle but relocating the battery, removing sheet metal from behind the front bumper (on a GTE you can remove alot without it showing), and fitting fibre glass parts where available (frontwings, hood) will give you something very similar to the stock weight distribution of the car. You do however need to upgrade your front suspension with high torsion springs, and some really good shocks. What you don´t want is a flatout as this will make your car handle crazy... It is 100% doable, and not something that i would be affraid to do. Fair enough, you cannot get as good handling as with a 4 cyl, but you get 180bhp and 280nm´s and the C30NE is a very tunable engine. 250+ hp with good old fashioned tuning is quite possible even on a budget (camshaft, upgraded injection or open carbs).. My old Monza had 220hp just by fitting tripple open dellorto carbs and a dual 2" exhaust system on a stock C30NE. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mantadoc Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 What he said. All I will add to the above is that I may or may not remember someone in a 16V Nova attempting to pass my mate's 3.0 Manta and the Nova running out of gears and dissappearing behind.. My mate's 3.0 engine cost £100, bits and bobs to fit it cost about another £100. Where do you get to upgrade a Manta to around 180BHP for £200? Started Friday afternoon, running Saturday morning and he drove to work in it Sunday night. Make a big wing sump tank, do not lower the anti-roll bar Consider joining the club for a load of engine conversion resources in the members area. However if you just search this section for the words sump ,mount and pipe you will get three matches. 2 give all the info you need for a 12V Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mantasrme Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 I do agree the cost of going to a 3.0 12v is about the most cost effective way of getting more power in a 2.0 GT/e engined car. A couple of hundred quid (assuming you have the ability to do the conversion yourself and not pay someone to do it) You're not going to get much extra power from a 4cyl cih for that sort of money. My old GT/e had oversize pistons,a big vavle head, fast road cam, vernier pulley and a tweeked injection system and only gave 150bhp, to buy and fit that sort of stuff new would be best part of £1000 The 16v route does cost much more to do with current prices of THOSE PARTS and you're looking at around £1000 for the gear to do it (unless you have a 1.8 manta to start with ) But the c20xe weighs around 107kg thats 48kg less than a 4cyl cih, 73kg less than a 24v 6cyl and 93kg less than a12v 6cyl For a weight comparison of the XE against a 12v 6cylinder its like having a 14.5 stone bloke sat in the front of the engine bay I did a c30se 24v conversion recently for someone and when i fitted the engine and put the car back on the ground the back end of the car sat a couple of inches higher than it had without the engine in Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mantadoc Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 For a weight comparison of the XE against a 12v 6cylinder its like having a 14.5 stone bloke sat in the front of the engine bay So there you have it, leave a mate at home to break even with with a 16V, get him to sit in the 16V for a power to weight advantage Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsi marc Posted January 22, 2012 Author Share Posted January 22, 2012 (edited) Thanks guys really torn now on this conversion, If i do go for it what else will i need from the senator. what about wiring ecu etc has the engines still running in the car so i can get everything in one go would be fitting to an already injected 2.0 litre Thanks marc Edited January 22, 2012 by gsi marc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
opel2000 Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 (edited) Always a fan of the straight 6 for and against topics. Myself I always wonder why they stopped putting the straight 6 into modern cars...... Hmm replaced by modern lighter engines at a guess. Straight 6's though are generally lovely smooth torquey lumps, but If I was going to the hassle of doing a stright 6 it would definately be a Skyline straight 6, would never contemplate the GM unit for one minute and definately not the GM 2.5 lump. Would also go to say.... Handling Laws of physics simply dictate that to change the given mass moving in a certain direction will take X amount of effort To change the direction of more mass moving in a certain direction will take more effort. Ok so springs are designed to absorb cornering energy amongst other things but, I simply and totally refuse to believe that the laws of physics do not exist in straight 6 engined Manta's. Handling must suffer. But then again if I had gone to the time effort and expense of fitting one I I may possibly tell a bit of a porky and say "NAH!,,,, Nah!,,,,, NAH! handling is spot on Mate!" Love the comments on the youtube clip "look how fast a straight 6 can go" Throw enough cash at any engine and it will go well, throw a little cash at the right engine and it will go well too is my argument, approx £800 thrown at my old 200SX (1.8 engine) would have seen 250 bhp and that is a well known conservative figure on these 1.8 engines. Superb tiny little lightweight lump approx half the weight and size of the GM straight 6 There are good modern lightweight extremely tuneable superb modern engines with plentiful parts out there, and there are old pig iron lumps that are hard to source parts for out there too, that "may not" enhance the superb handling of the Manta. Edited January 22, 2012 by opel2000 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
opel2000 Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Thanks guys really torn now on this conversion, If i do go for it what else will i need from the senator. what about wiring ecu etc has the engines still running in the car so i can get everything in one go would be fitting to an already injected 2.0 litre Thanks marc I understand that if the Senator is an auto it is a nightmare to wire up as the ECU talks to the Autobox ECU Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doveyte2800 Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Hi, I think that most of the pros and cons have been covered by others but as one who has built and rallied a 6 cyl. Manta A in the historic rally championship can I add a word. Yes you can get a reasonable priced 3.0lt but improving it still costs money and to get it to fit and handle right takes time. Ideally you should move the engine back, around 200mm is possible but you have to modify the bulkhead and gearbox /gear lever positions ( A series, not sure if B engine bays are bigger.) new engine mounts need fabricating and the sump needs to be a reverse hand so that the deep part sits behind the crossmember. You need a bigger radiator as they do get warm but space is limited even when the engine is moved back. The battery needs to be in the boot and you may have to modify the heater area of the bulkhead. Springs need to be 300 - 400lb with a length of around 290mm, dont go too hard or your teeth will fall out, the rear spring height may need reducing to get the car sitting level. What ever you do dont forget to uprate your brakes! dont know much about electrics/injection as ours ran on Webers. Personally i would now go for a big bore 4 cyl CIH, pick up an old 2.4 Frontera, use the engine and scrap the rest ( £300 for car, £220 weigh in so £80 for engine) as it sits in the same place as the original engine and has plenty of grunt and can be easily modified. Anyway good luck whichever way u go Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
opel2000 Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Thankyou Ian, superb post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsi marc Posted January 22, 2012 Author Share Posted January 22, 2012 Yes ian i can see your point thats why i posted the topic so i could se what the guys on here had to say. Must be honest i hadnt really thought much about a frontera motor but looks like it would be a damn sight easier conversion on a budget. Like most of the guys on here have said the straight six seems to be a step backwords so back to the drawing board on this, Time to look at the frontera motor then and whats involved, Thanks to everyone for the input on this,,,, marc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monzta Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Regarding the Frontera engine (its also to be had from some Carltons by the way) it is very underpowered when it comes stock. The injection system is the big sinner here, as its the only CIH to be made running with the new bosch injection similar to the one on the 16V. Also intake manifold is very small and the throttle body has a bottle neck like you´ve never seen before. As stock it only produce 125hp, but they are SO tunable you wouldnt believe it. But if you want to get that hidden power you will need to scrap the fuel injection. No CIH engine will take good power gains running the Fuel injection system that was fitted from the factory. Twin carbs is the only way to go, unless you can get your hands on some open throttle bodies wich will be the best you can do (give you a decent mpg as well). Fit a 2,5" exhaust system to a 2,4 and a set of twin carbs and you will have 150bhp. Add a camshaft and you will have 170 or more. I must say however, that even though handling will suffer a bit it won´t be undrivable. Look at Porsche 911. There´s a car that has got the laws of physics upside down but they are still racing the blody things around every racetrack in the world.. My point is, that the fact of the matter is that you will not get cheaper power gains than a straight 6. The C30NE is not even a slow 6, its fast reving and very very sporty to drive. That engine is by my opinion the best 2 valve pr cyl CIH ever made .. Further power gains are easy to get, and breaking the 200hp mark is extremly easy and cheap. Getting a 16V or a 2,4 above 200hp (even getting them to reach the 180hp) will cost you what 3 whole C30NE engines will cost.. The downsides are the heavy front end, but as said, there is alot you can do about it. When moving the battery to the trunk you actually removes twice the weight of the battery as the weight now rests on the rear axle. Removing sheet metal parts of the front end will also save you some weight, especially the front panels behind the front bumper apron will be a good thing to remove. Getting the right springs and shocks will further make the issue seem alot more reasonable. And last but not least, learning to know your car after the build will give you the last edge. It will not handle like a 4 cyl Manta anymore, but when you know the car, and its limitations, i am quite confident that you will never be sorry about a 6 cyl conversion. As stated before, i would not hesitate if it was me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mantadoc Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Thanks guys really torn now on this conversion, If i do go for it what else will i need from the senator. what about wiring ecu etc has the engines still running in the car so i can get everything in one go would be fitting to an already injected 2.0 litre Thanks marc Before people scare you what year senator? a pic of engine would not go amiss Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mantadoc Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Basically dead easy, same as Manta. Use gearbox and prop that you would in a Manta. First make a choice are you going to lower the Anti-roll bar and shorten the drop links, thus making a car you can't drive hard without ripping the ARB mounts out of the rails. Not enough length in the links to allow for the track change so as it rolls it works the ARB mounts laft and right. Or.... Make a sump and pickup pipe? Measure from back of block to engine mount bolt hole on a 4 cyl, next do it for a 6 cyl. That's the dimension you need to bring the bolt holes on the crossmember that far forward. Then you can use Manta CIH mounts on the engine, 3.0 monza mounts on modified crossmember. Use the monza mounts that look like the 4 cyl ones but longer. If you have the later round LH mount lose it and use the solid type (like right hand) Hint standard engine mount plates on crossmember have an edge on top that sticks up, bend it onto the crossmember and weld it too it. Otherwise the standard steel mounts on the crossmember will shift with the weight. Then make 4mm plate extensions that are bolted to original mount hole on crossmember and gusseted to the crossmember and welsed too. Must be rigid and strong but not too high. or bonnet probs later. it's a 12V yes? Dump the front pulley for a Manta one, single V instead of triple gains space. Dump water pump for early one so it has 4 bolt flange so gain space and either use fixed fan (slim and cheap) or electric. Volume out sump and design tank hint nearer sump is to crank over crossmember area lower you can sling it. I did this by putting sunp on a flat surface upside down work out lowest height over back big end journal. Cut a block of wood to that height. Hold a scribe flay on the wood and slide the block around the sump scratching the line of what to remove. Bored now Blah blah move rad crossmember Do exhaust as either close 2 into 1 Y Or get some joints out of scrap exhausts and 1pipe goes from manifold to a 2 into 1 under engine (space between crossmember and bellhousing is ideal) other pipe runs other side of steering column, but because of joints easy to dismantle. First time I did this we pulled 2.0 Fri PM and he drove it to work Sunday. No warranty implied or given [] New shorter posts to minimise global warming by conserving ones and zeros [] The uncivilized end of the North West [] I was looking for a sketch of the plans n stuff, scanned in years ago, looks like it got binned. One nice benefit is as the mounts are farther forward the gearbox will swing down enought to easily change it complete with lever. Don't be tempted to put plates on the block to move the mounts 1 cyl back to avoid modifying the crossmember as there is then enough engine (over half) in front of the pivot point. No warranty of any kind implied or given etc, this is just how I've done it a couple of times and not a recomendation of any kind. Still had hard copy Small Triangle, sticky out edge on right and edge on bottom fold over and welded up corners to add rigidity. That slight slope on the edge of the right sticky out bit is not an accident. Remember what I said earlier about the tag on the engine mount piece that is welded to the crossmember being tapped over to touch the crossmember where it comes up..... don't forget that. The template is turned over to make the L/H mount. Another smaller hole is required near the mount hole to allow the tang of the mount to engage. This bracket was bolted to the crossmember through the rubber mount fixing hole and welded too. The actual steel may have evolved since the template but only in the area of the triangle. The crossmember is the same regardless of L/H mount design, the L/H engine mount rubber and mount on engine are what changes. This brackett was designed to be used with the solid Monza mounts (they will fit standard Manta R/H side and L/H for older cars that don't have the round mount. However, as the Crossmember bit is the same it may well work for the round mount too, although I wouldn't advise letting a mount for the 2.0 with the weight of the 3.0 Large: http://www.atcy66.ds.../misc/plans.jpg]http://www.atcy66.dsl.pipex.com/misc/plans.jpg"]http://www.atcy66.ds.../misc/plans.jpg Back when I did this for Ant he got an engine for £100 and all the rest of the stuff cost under £100, so for less than £200 he got about 170BHP back when PMCs 145BHP kit was over £600 Spot the extra scoop, on this one the water way in the throttle body rubbed the bonnet so a hole was cut and the scoop added, anyone guess what it was off? The bonnet internals were cut away in the required area. We didn't need a scoop on the second one and as far as I remember the mount design was the same. Note where the fixed fan sits, I cut a slot in the mesh in the bonnet centre triangle, as per the one in Hooten park to aid in lifting the bonnet, of course with the 3.0 running it was finger tickling good as I soon found out. The engine bas wasn't pretty before we started, anything not tidy I didn't touch [] For this car we used a Carlton rad, some 2" by 4mm strip was used to fold a U shape, the sides of which touched / were welded to the inner edges of the chassis rails. It was a sloped nose carlton. Boxes were welded to the bottom of the U to hold the Carlton rad bottom mounts. Can't remember the top. The rad crossmember was removed after some box section was welded between the front of the chassis rails to maintain structural integrity. The second car had a fibreglass 4 slot, so with this removed we mounted a Sierra 1.6 rad between the rails after notching them, mounting was done by 4 mini exhaust bobbin mounts. Rad crossmember was again removed but this time replaced by box section that sat behind the rad. No warranty implied or given [] New shorter posts to minimise global warming by conserving ones and zeros [] The uncivilized end of the North West [] If you've got a GTE ahh it's a cav, well if your cav is a 4 speed that will fit, as will the flywheel etc. Standard GTE clutch lasts 10k miles or two good standing starts, that is a subsequent expense not included in the £200. I would convert to 5 speed first first as having the box securely mounted in the right place is key to keeping the back face of the block lined up with the gearbox in the original place, if you want to put it together with standard parts. Either that or get it bolted in on your existing box sort the mounts etc, then change the box if your using something that requires custom prop or box mounts. If you go for an Auto all Manta throttle pedals (AFAIK) have the mount for the kickdown on, but not the tube in the bulkhead next to the throttle cable hole. You may need a needle roller bearing if converting an auto engine to take manual box, at least one I've come across already had the roller behind the plug. No warranty implied or given [] New shorter posts to minimise global warming by conserving ones and zeros [] The uncivilized end of the North West [] Have a look when you have them both out, or maybe someone else on here knows? Most of that kind of stuff seems to have generic type numbers. I've swapped flywheels across models over the years so pretty sure the end of all cranks is the same, which would mean that if they fit any flywheel they will fit any CIH drive plate. I would hope the 3.0 drive plate is tougher, and if the box was the same externally i.e mounts and fits your prop I would use the 3.0 stuff. And yep, the back face of the 6cyl CIH block is the same as the 4cyl CIH, gearboxes will fit. As your cav won't have EFI you will have some plumbing and wiring to do unless you found something with carbs. Bright side if you are using the older L or LE Jetronic engines it plumbs in the same as the Manta GTE stuff. Just watch out for the external ballast resistors on the older type and the odd EGR valve which adds to the complexity of vacuum pipes. Don't let the above paragraph bother you. Ideally you are looking for an engine where all the EFI stuff looks like Manta GTE just with two extra injectors and a slightly different auxiliary air bypass valve. Found a pic of sump The engine above was for the second car..... it went to Ireland too No warranty implied or given [] New shorter posts to minimise global warming by conserving ones and zeros [] The uncivilized end of the North West [] This is a mates car about 10 years ago. As it arrived, bumper bent from muppet towing it. Apparently it broke down on its way to be sprayed and the owner couldn't get the bonnet open so sold it. Easily opened with the old "push the bracket back" trick. I did open it before it was bought. Worth the £200 for the wheels and lights I think. Compomotive 3 piece. http://www.atcy66.ds.../misc/3l/03.jpg http://www.atcy66.ds.../misc/3l/06.jpg Fibreglass nose. Not a preference but ok. http://www.atcy66.ds.../misc/3l/07.jpg Stripped front and raiator crossmember roughed out. http://www.atcy66.ds.../misc/3l/08.jpg Rad cross member to chassis rails tidied. Anti-roll bar left in standard position. http://www.atcy66.ds.../misc/3l/09.jpg Engine in, big wing sump behind anti-roll bar. Chassis rail repaired where rusty and notched to fit a 1.6 Sierra rad that way lying around. Mini bobbin exhaust mounts from the original mini x4 for the rad mounts. http://www.atcy66.ds.../misc/3l/10.jpg Rad in place. There is a box section welded in between the chassis rails between it. Very important to tie the rails together after removing the original. You can fit a rad in this position with a steel nose, you just have to cut out the support bit. http://www.atcy66.ds.../misc/3l/11.jpg http://www.atcy66.ds.../misc/3l/12.jpg http://www.atcy66.ds.../misc/3l/13.jpg http://www.atcy66.ds.../misc/3l/14.jpg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monzta Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsi marc Posted January 22, 2012 Author Share Posted January 22, 2012 (edited) Thanks monzta really have started something here havnt i, I first liked the idea of the straight six because from driving the senator the power is instant and alot smoother than the 2.0 i have fitted and this is an afordable option for me as the car is there. Could always make the wife sit in the boot , like the porche comment by the way what about the wiring issue on the auto ecu any ideas thanks,,, marc Not much info i need to find out now. Thanks for that and some nice under bonnet pics there too.What do you need to do wiring wise has one of the earlier coments said the automatic ecu s a pain to fit a manual. Not got any pics of car yet but will post some as soon as i do thanks for the help,,, marc Edited January 22, 2012 by gsi marc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mantadoc Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Not much info i need to find out now. Thanks for that and some nice under bonnet pics there too.What do you need to do wiring wise has one of the earlier coments said the automatic ecu s a pain to fit a manual. Not got any pics of car yet but will post some as soon as i do thanks for the help,,, marc You still haven't answered what year senator. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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