Barillo Posted July 17, 2018 Author Share Posted July 17, 2018 Hi Again. I got a bit further in my quest tonight by following the advice you gave me. I set the pulley notch around 3 ml clockwise of the timing marker and then slightly rotated the dizzy round for notch to line up better. I checked condition of all plugs after previous test running and they all seemed pretty good condition. None were soaking in fuel anyway which was good to see. I fitted the K&N cone filter this time & I went to start the motor up and it fired up second go so that was a result. It seemed to sound better this time and after revving and warming the engine for a while I let the throttle off and was able to get out of the car to proper see & hear the engine better because it was idling now but only just on the edge of sounding like it might cut out but it did run on idle itself and although I'm getting closer it still sounds a bit unhealthy & not idling smooth enough yet. I'm Really hoping now Strobe light timing and proper air box set up will be all that's needed but I'm not counting my Chickens yet!! With a bit of luck I may not have to spend too much for this engine to come good for now but I have a couple of questions. My car is a GTE exclusive and I believe it is a late 87 or 88 model which is great . It has under 76000 on the clock which is a big reason why I took it on as a project. What type of fuel would this car have been designed to use? ie 4 star or super unleaded? Also was wondering if I gave this car to a recommended Mechanic with a proper business to tune and dial in some Fuel/Air settings can he just plug in some pro diagnostic equipment to the old ECU computer and find out what the car needs for optimum running? Would it be fairly easy for him to do on an older car and not too expensive?? Just thinking along lines of getting the car ready for road soon without the potential problems that may well arise from a previously unused/abandoned GTE just being brought back to life. Another question is there any recommended stuff I can run thru the fuel system that will really help clean the insides out and perhaps help get rid of carbon deposits? I realise there is a lot of mechanical snake oil out there but some of it has do work somehow?? Regards. Bar 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanMc Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 Fantastic news, well done that man. Your cant really go wrong with a shot of Redex to clean the system through. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowy Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 4 hours ago, Barillo said: With a bit of luck I may not have to spend too much for this engine to come good for now but I have a couple of questions. My car is a GTE exclusive and I believe it is a late 87 or 88 model which is great . It has under 76000 on the clock which is a big reason why I took it on as a project. What type of fuel would this car have been designed to use? ie 4 star or super unleaded? Also was wondering if I gave this car to a recommended Mechanic with a proper business to tune and dial in some Fuel/Air settings can he just plug in some pro diagnostic equipment to the old ECU computer and find out what the car needs for optimum running? Would it be fairly easy for him to do on an older car and not too expensive?? The car should be capable of running on unleaded. The should be a code stamped into the side of the head. P2E. But use the search function on this forum and more information will pop up. No you cannot plug your computer in to dial in adjustments on this ECU. You can't even plug your computer in for diagnostics. There are breakout boards that can be plugged in-between the loom and ECU and specialist diagnostic equipment but it is rare and most garages don't carry it anymore. But most items can be checked easily using a mulitmeter and data from the workshop manuals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barillo Posted July 17, 2018 Author Share Posted July 17, 2018 Hi Snowy. That's good detailed advice and thanks for the quick reply. I'm going to try and do whatever I can myself with the manual and with my other car friend who gives some good tech advice when we work together. A lot of this stuff is new to me with electronic ignition & engine timing but Its's coming along. Its good to know the car will run on unleaded fuel. Do you have any preference to type Fuel / Rating you use with these cars? Cheers. Bar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowy Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 1 hour ago, Barillo said: Hi Snowy. That's good detailed advice and thanks for the quick reply. I'm going to try and do whatever I can myself with the manual and with my other car friend who gives some good tech advice when we work together. A lot of this stuff is new to me with electronic ignition & engine timing but Its's coming along. Its good to know the car will run on unleaded fuel. Do you have any preference to type Fuel / Rating you use with these cars? Cheers. Bar Check your cylinder head as I've advised. Your head could easily have been changed to an earlier head at some point in its life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barillo Posted July 17, 2018 Author Share Posted July 17, 2018 OK I will do that. Out to dinner tonight. Later. bar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoobby Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 Location just above no2 plug hole. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cam.in.head Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 Yes that’s what you should find .the p denotes unleaded capability,anything after March 1985 unless as stated someone has ever put an earlier head on. If you have got it idling now and the timing is set then you may be just looking at slightly dirty or sticking injectors. If whilst idling you unplug each injector electrical plug one at a time you should see a similar drop in idle speed.little or no drop would indicate that cylinder not operating at full potential. Running engine in most cases clears them eventually.good fuel has cleaning agents in it but no harm in a dose of redex in tank. you can try a similar idle speed drop test on the ht side of things by having a thin wire tail inserted under each plug lead at plug end or cap and then shorting each cylinder out one at a time with a SECURELY earthed and insulated cable . another test you can do if you have not renewed ht cables is check with a multimeter that you are getting a circuit through them.depends on the type of cables fitted but you should have a resistance .mine are from 5k ohms to 15k ohms depending on the actual cable length so don’t expect them to be equal but a stupidly high resistance could be a bad cable. Onwards and upwards . Your getting there. Regarding actual fuel . These engines were originally designed for 4 star leaded and even thou the later engines can use unleaded they do need the timing retarding a little as you have done . Unless you want to use the higher octane superunleaded fuels around in which case you may be able to set timing on actual standard marks.but that’s something for later ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monaco Blue Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, cam.in.head said: Regarding actual fuel . These engines were originally designed for 4 star leaded and even thou the later engines can use unleaded they do need the timing retarding a little as you have done . Unless you want to use the higher octane superunleaded fuels around in which case you may be able to set timing on actual standard marks.but that’s something for later ! You are spot-on about the use of super-unleaded. When unleaded was introduced to the UK circa 30 years ago, Vauxhall produced a help sheet listing all their models and which would run on unleaded. The Manta GTE 86-88MY was listed as super unleaded only. This as you say allowed it to run with the timing unaltered. I'm not sure of the wisdom of using normal unleaded with the timing retarded. I do know I ran my 87MY GTE on super unleaded for near on 10 years with no ill effects. I seem to recall the 1.8 engine could use normal unleaded. Edited July 17, 2018 by Monaco Blue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cam.in.head Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 Yeah that’s correct. The unleaded aspect is why the engines needed hardened valve seats.leaded petrol used the lead to lubricate and help cool the seats so they didn’t need to be as hard.the original cast iron/steel heads had the seats cut directly into the head material itself with no insert whatsoever. unleaded fuel is only 95ron rated so needs the timing retarding a little as it burns a little slower.whereas old 4 star was 98 ? And the super unleaded is similar 97 I think ) so can run standard timing. that said it also depends on the compression ratio.the 2 litre with carburettor can usually be run on standard timing marks (usually ! Give or take )but the injection is a higher compression ratio so will pink in 99% of engines and needs retarding ..all engines are slightly different as is fuel quality,engine condition and even altitude can make a difference so timing marks can only be used as a basic starting point and may need slight tweaking to get the best results.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barillo Posted July 17, 2018 Author Share Posted July 17, 2018 Hello folks. Interesting info about the fuel and engine differences there. Definitely will be adding Redex cleaner to the fuel from now. I started it again today in stationary and it ran & sounded even better almost like you say the motor unclogs and frees up a bit like injectors coming to life . It was idling pretty good but a still bit peaky wally . ( not strobe lamped yet) & still waiting to do a proper Compression test) I found a couple of interesting things when I was looking at the engine running under the hood. When I put my hand on the blue electrical connector for the cold start valve as if to push it on a bit more it made a decent difference to the engine sound and seemed to run better. Anyway a few of the tops of these bosch type pin clip connectors are a bit crap looking, loose and cracked away now and reckon they could do with changing for better electrical contacting. Also noticed big radiator hose leaking quite a bit once engine warmed up so its getting fixed next. Soon checked the price of Cold start valves new and a few other things to do with the system ie switch/sensors/meters etc and found they were hard to find and expensive using BuyCarParts site and eBay as a guide. Does anyone know if you can get just the Cold start valve switch blue top connector half with the locking clip thru it ? Would replace all of these things on this car if I could. I ordered a new temperature sensor on eBay tonight so that's one down but it wasn't too bad coming in at under £15. Seems these are probably worth a punt at changing anyway to save problems down the road. God willing! Thanks for all replies & help. Cheers. Bar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanMc Posted July 18, 2018 Share Posted July 18, 2018 If it were me (rather than replacing sensors/connectors), I would be unclipping them and blasting them clean/clear with an airline. After that add some electrical contact cleaner and refit the clip connector. If you feel that they are not tight enough, improvise some extra connection force by using a cable tie somehow to pull them up tighter. That way you can easily and cheaply prove or disprove that they are OK or not. No point in spending money possibly unnecessarily. Just my tuppence... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowy Posted July 18, 2018 Share Posted July 18, 2018 The issue is more likely to be with the injection harness as the wiring goes brittle with age. For not much money you can buy a brand new harness ready to go. Apart from the thermotime switch you can buy everything else new if you shop around. But only buy what you need. The one thing that causes poor running is the airflow meter. No amount of blowing it out will help. There is an electrical contact under the black plastic cover that sweeps across a track that eventually wears out. There are companies who sell rebuilt units but cost between 160 -195 pounds. So don't buy anything yet. Test. Find out what is wrong and go from there. It is a very simple system. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowy Posted July 18, 2018 Share Posted July 18, 2018 Link to injector cleaning https://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/ULTRASONIC-FUEL-INJECTOR-CLEANING-SERVICE-CLEANER-/380072659398 Link to airflow meter https://www.atpelectronics.co.uk/p/vauxhall-manta-air-flow-meter-throttle-body-afm-for-le-jetronic.html Link to ecu https://www.atpelectronics.co.uk/p/vauxhall-manta-fuel-injection-ecu-le-jetronic.html Link to new injection harness https://www.edelschmiede.com/shop/navi.php?a=1485&lang=eng I could go on....but stuff isn't hard to find at all. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cam.in.head Posted July 18, 2018 Share Posted July 18, 2018 Yes to the above .ian and snowy are correct.do not be buying any parts just yet as there’s a good chance you won’t need any. One point to note. When you said you havnt had a strobe light on it yet how did you set the timing to 3mm clockwise from the mark ?you can’t realy time these up statically like you could with the old points setup. I assumed you used your lamp whilst cranking ? Now it will idle you can time it up properly .(the slower the better realy) just make sure the rotor arm turns and springs back for the mechanical advance and then use strobe to time it up with vac pipe unplugged and blocked although it shouldn’t bring itself in at idle speed anyway. i think you may find that with the timing set the injectors may well be fine .and hopefully no one will have messed inside the airflow meter. fingers crossed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowy Posted July 18, 2018 Share Posted July 18, 2018 Because you have never heard the engine run before you managed to get it started please start with all the basics before adjusting anything else. Do you have any induction leaks? Do you have a good set, and correct, of plugs, leads, cap and rotor arm. I've seen plenty of bodges just to get an engine to run. A favourite on the GTE for those who don't know how to set them up is they try to adjust the idle using the throttle plate stop screw instead of the idle air screw. So is your throttle flap set correctly? Which in turn allows you to check that the throttle position sensor is set correctly. Again please do all the basic checks you would do on an engine before you adjust or change anything. The list above is an example and not exhaustive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barillo Posted July 18, 2018 Author Share Posted July 18, 2018 Hello Folks. Super GTE advise all being taken in carefully and not done rushed fashion. I am enjoying working and learning about this car at a leisure pace and they really are nice cars to work with. Plenty room for spannering and things are happening. Basic checks first. I'm not planning to start fidgeting with the Air/fuel settings on the Injection system unless I really know what the cause and effect can be. My friend who has the strobe lamp is not back from holiday yet so basically all I did to try and alter the timing was move the pulley marker 3 ml clockwise past timing marker on engine then took dizzy cap off, loosened the adjusting screw and rolled it round just a wee bit so the notches lined up then tightened the screw again. I found when I was rolling the dizzy back and forward a bit it made a clicking sound with the ignition switched on and it did sound like a contact being made & just screwed it down where the click occurred figuring that was it's new timing point set 3 seconds past, so I tried starting the car up again and it was running much better but I think I might have got a bit lucky doing that without lamp. I Only had the manual and forum advice and manual could only say to basically get the timing in the ball park using the markers and notches for the contactless breaker. Also this time I actually fitted the K&N cone on the air unit which likely helped running on an idle too. The Battery , HT leads, Plugs, Rotar arm, Dizzy cap all look good to me as there is a good spark on all leads. I don't know if the throttle flap valve is set correctly yet but I will get round to checking it now that you mentioned it. Brand new intake pipe fitted so that's fine but some of the others are looking a bit perished so I will be doing full leak checks. Once we have the strobe lamp to hand and get the engine running to time it proper what exactly do I do to adjust the markings into line when its all spinning? Another job I am doing just now is mending the fuel tank which was patched up with fibreglass and was slowly leaking away. I wire brushed with power drill the old fibreglass away and will get a proper metal patch welded over the area that's covered with holes. Ideally would like to have it done using a TiG set but its something I do not have. I also need to mend the securing straps with some extra bracers because they look like they could spoil an MOT check and are on the way out. Great stuff. Cheers. Bar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cam.in.head Posted July 18, 2018 Share Posted July 18, 2018 Good stuff and yes it’s all enjoyable. With you having fuel tank issues I would be very very carefull about welding it up .its the fuel vapours that can remain even after a tank has been empty for some time.mine was done by a company called “renew” via northern radiators group but that was a few years back .might just be easier to use some jb weld for now and then source another tank later. For the retaining straps thou I would just call at a metal fabrication place and just get a couple of galv strips cut.the originals don’t last long !. As regards getting it running you sound to be not far off ! As snowy says just get the basics right first as you go along .dont adjust anything unless you have to . regards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
®evo03 Posted July 18, 2018 Share Posted July 18, 2018 Any one ever try a plastic calibra tank! Similar, neck would be different! Welding a tank, would on my f............. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barillo Posted July 18, 2018 Author Share Posted July 18, 2018 Hello. Thanks for the caution there and I know its dangerous welding on tanks. Taking proper precautions. The Fuel tanks been emptied, Opened at the sender hole and vented from the top for a good while now. I have a little compressor and will fully blast out any vapours but I can hardly smell any fuel from it now. I do have a cracking little MiG welder which I think will do the job but I never thought of trying using JB weld on a fuel tank. Good Idea though. Same with the Galv strips. Very nice idea & May try that one as its not that much work involved making them up. I'm thinking along lines of putting it thru MOT for a little as possible then Making the car better bit by bit at nights and weekend as I go along after that. Would be great to have it road worthy reliable this Summer/Autumn. Top-end will tell I suppose . As you say basics first. Regards Bar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowy Posted July 18, 2018 Share Posted July 18, 2018 28 minutes ago, ®evo03 said: Any one ever try a plastic calibra tank! Similar, neck would be different! Welding a tank, would on my f............. Yes. No where near the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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