CIH starter motor

[Nivlek2525]

Hi all,

I think my starter motor has died. Its a bosch item and I've no idea how old it is or when it was last used so could be original. Solenoid works fine and motor spins quietly enough on the bench connected to the power pack. Attached to the car it will turn the engine over reasonably quickly with all the plugs out but as soon as I put a single plug in or try to do a compression test it will do maybe a couple of revolutions and then stop and the starter begins to smoke....

I've stripped it down and done some of the tests you see on YouTube. There doesn't appear to be any dead coils, all resistance look the same and the bearings have very little play. That's the extent of my knowledge on electric motors....

So, I think it's time for a replacement.  I understand that the 2.4 starter or even the 3.0 starter is a useful upgrade. 

Does anyone have any useful part numbers or links to where I can find a suitable starter preferably from a larger CIH engine? I've trawled through various threads but can't find anything. 

I think I'd prefer new or reconditioned but open to ideas. 

This is one of the last hurdles to hopefully getting this thing to fire up.

Many thanks.

K.

 

 

[Jessopia74]

BOSCH 0 001 311 112 https://www.onlinecarparts.co.uk/bosch-668456.html type thing.

However, you could go with a high speed geared unit https://www.ccw-tools.com/WOSP-LMS492---Opel-Manta-A-1.9-Reduction-Gear-Starter-Motor__p-40138.aspx

 

Or plenty used ones on EBay for the 6cylinder such as https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/144920218627

 

The OEM Bosch for 4cyl was like 0.8kw and 6cyl was 1.5kw. But I am not sure about length 

 

But might be worth getting your own refurbished?

[H-400]

Both my 2.4's have a higher compression than normally. Same issues so both have yet the 2.4/3.024v starter (they are both the same). They are smaller but are more powerfull 👍. No more problems anymore 

[Nivlek2525]

Hi Jess 

I finally got that tank fitted so another step further but not there yet. Thanks again.

Thanks for the links. I did think about getting mine rebuilt but couldn't find any where local and I'd still be left with a 2.0 one where as I think the one from the later engine would be better. 

I'll have another look one ebay and see if I can short list a couple.

There's a few listed for the 6 cylinder. Almost none for the 2.4. Are all cih starters the same do you think?

Hi Herman

Good to here from you. I think I read one of your earlier posts recommending a later starter. Do you happen to know the part number for the 2.4 starter you have. I have a mechanic friend who can sometimes help source parts but he really needs part numbers to do it easily.

Keep well both of you.

K.

This is the one I was watching.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/153229328107?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=PZwRLvGyS1e&sssrc=4429486&ssuid=bCQaVNHOQOG&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

Look OK?

[611]

Im not sure on the 2.4 starter but i have one from a 3.0l senator on mine and that turns it over nice and quick.

Will see if i can find a part number on mine.

[Nivlek2525]

3 minutes ago, 611 said:

Im not sure on the 2.4 starter but i have one from a 3.0l senator on mine and that turns it over nice and quick.

Will see if i can find a part number on mine.

Brilliant thanks. It's appreciated. 

K.

[Moonmonkey]

19 minutes ago, Nivlek2525 said:

This is the one I was watching.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/153229328107?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=PZwRLvGyS1e&sssrc=4429486&ssuid=bCQaVNHOQOG&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

Look OK?

I got my C30NE starter from them, works a treat.

One thing to look out for is that there are 2 different length starter motors, and therefore 2 different brackets that go on the rear to mount to the block. I don’t know if it’s the difference between Bosch and Delco or 2.0 and 3.0. 

 

[Nivlek2525]

8 hours ago, Moonmonkey said:

I got my C30NE starter from them, works a treat.

One thing to look out for is that there are 2 different length starter motors, and therefore 2 different brackets that go on the rear to mount to the block. I don’t know if it’s the difference between Bosch and Delco or 2.0 and 3.0. 

 

That's good to know thanks. Useful information about the bracket too. I bet they are harder to find than the.starters themselves. I guess I could always make something up at a push.

Cheers.

K

[Moonmonkey]

Just something to be aware of as new starters don’t always come with the bracket.

GM6 Spares is good for 3.0CIH parts if you need a shorter bracket

[H-400]

10 hours ago, Nivlek2525 said:

Do you happen to know the part number for the 2.4 starter you have

Will have a look, they are fitted on the engines so not sure it is visible.  

[Jessopia74]

I believe the 2.4 was the same as the early 6cylinder Carb starters, but the 3.0injection 12v is the most powerful. The 24v one should also fit , but needs someone to clarify 

[H-400]

I remember years back my car-parts shop sold the 2.4 and 3.024v starter as the same part. Looked at his website but for both engines they are not listed anymore. 2.4 engine:

2.6 dual ram:

3.024v:

They all seem to have the compact stronger starter, noticed all without bracket

[cam.in.head]

replacing the starter may well be required but just check also that the engine earth lead is intact. this usually damages the clutch or speedo cable but will also make the starter slow to turn !

[Nivlek2525]

8 hours ago, H-400 said:

I remember years back my car-parts shop sold the 2.4 and 3.024v starter as the same part. Looked at his website but for both engines they are not listed anymore. 2.4 engine:

2.6 dual ram:

3.024v:

They all seem to have the compact stronger starter, noticed all without bracket

That's excellent Herman.  I think now that I know a 3.0 one should fit there are a few more reasonably priced ones on ebay. I think I'll just get one ordered.

2 hours ago, cam.in.head said:

replacing the starter may well be required but just check also that the engine earth lead is intact. this usually damages the clutch or speedo cable but will also make the starter slow to turn !

Hi CIH. Hope you are well.  A friend suggested this so I've already used a jump lead from the negative straight to the starter motor body and its no better. I think it's just time for a new one but thanks for the advice.

[611]

Not sure if you still need this but the number on my starter is

 

1 005 821 411 and its a Bosch.

 

Andy

[Nivlek2525]

3 hours ago, 611 said:

Not sure if you still need this but the number on my starter is

 

1 005 821 411 and its a Bosch.

 

Andy

Hi Andy

Unfortunately I do still need it....I ordered the one off ebay listed for a 3litre senator c30NE engine but its completely different.  Much bigger diameter on the part that bolts to the engine and differed bolt patern.  As far as I can see its actually off a later family 2 engine. I think the guy I bought it off is going to take it back so hopefully just out the postage....

I'll use your part number to see if I can find a part that fits..

Thanks again.

K.

[611]

3 hours ago, Nivlek2525 said:

Hi Andy

Unfortunately I do still need it....I ordered the one off ebay listed for a 3litre senator c30NE engine but its completely different.  Much bigger diameter on the part that bolts to the engine and differed bolt patern.  As far as I can see its actually off a later family 2 engine. I think the guy I bought it off is going to take it back so hopefully just out the postage....

I'll use your part number to see if I can find a part that fits..

Thanks again.

K.

Needs to be off the older 3.0l. I cant remember what the years are.

Try https://gm6spares.com/ they know there stuff and might be able to help out. They have an ebay store as well.

Andy

[execman]

hi 

I use a Monza one on my 2.7 and have had no issues. straight replacement; although it looks slightly bigger I had no problems doing the swap.

[cam.in.head]

yes all the 6 cyl ones from the senator,monza,royale,commodore will fit (cant comment on 3.0 24valve )as will carlton 2.2 ones.  pretty sure frontera 2.4 too.

both my 2.2's have senator starters on and although known to be more powerfull its not 'that' noticeable especially with a good battery on. usually some on ebay. or from breakers. gm6 will probably have them but not usually cheap !

[Nivlek2525]

Thanks all,

I got in touch with Derek from GM6 and he's sorted me out with a starter from a straight 6. He was very helpful. It's used but wasn't a bad price. Hopefully it arrives by the weekend and I can start to make a bit of progress.

I'll update the post to let.you know how I get on.

K.

[611]

1 hour ago, Nivlek2525 said:

Thanks all,

I got in touch with Derek from GM6 and he's sorted me out with a starter from a straight 6. He was very helpful. It's used but wasn't a bad price. Hopefully it arrives by the weekend and I can start to make a bit of progress.

I'll update the post to let.you know how I get on.

K.

That's great. 

Helps when you find someone who knows their stuff 🙂

[Nivlek2525]

Starter motor arrived today. Its a bosche unit but is much smaller. The bolt pattern looks OK so looks like it's one of the smaller more powerful ones. Hope so anyway.

I've only bench tested it and it seems fine so far. Spins up nice and quietly.

The only difference is the wiring on the solenoid.  They both have the large connection for the permanent connection to the battery but the later starter has two other connections. One is the switch live to activate the solenoid but I've no idea what the other is for or whether I need to do anything with it. 

Original

"New"

It's the small one without the bolt that's the mystery..any thoughts anyone?

Cheers and thanks as always.

K.

Edited November 6, 2023 by Nivlek2525

[cam.in.head]

usually the extra terminal would be for a car with points type ignition.ie an early car. no idea why it would be on a later solenoid unless its had a solenoid change in its life .although ive never seen one with bolt connections rather than spades ?

so long as its what its supposed to be and fits and works you dont need to connect anything to it .

Edited November 6, 2023 by cam.in.head

[Nivlek2525]

4 minutes ago, cam.in.head said:

usually the extra terminal would be for a car with points type ignition.ie an early car. no idea why it would be on a later solenoid unless its had a solenoid change in its life .although ive never seen one with bolt connections rather than spades ?

so long as its what its supposed to be and fits and works you dont need to connect anything to it .

Many thanks. It's from a late senator apparently.  

I've managed to get it to work on the bench just jumping the live to the terminal with the nut on. 

I just wanted to make sure that extra connection wasn't something that needed something doing with it. Last thing I need is to fry this starter as well. 

Cheers again. Frustratingly I'm away until Friday now so won't get a chance to fit it for another week.

K.

Just checked. 12v senator B and carlton GSI according to Derek and gm6. 

[cam.in.head]

its only early.   fit it now and lets see how it spins over !  you know you want to !

Edited November 6, 2023 by cam.in.head